THOTH A Catastrophics Newsletter VOL II, No. 12 July 31, 1998 EDITOR: Amy Acheson PUBLISHER: Michael Armstrong LIST MANAGER: Brian Stewart CONTENTS OPPORTUNITIES IN CATASROPHICS . . . . . . . . . . Amy Acheson GROUNDRULES FOR RECONSTRUCTING ANCIENT EVENTS (1). David Talbott SATURNISTS PLAY MARBLES . . . . . . . . . . .the Kronia list IMPACT: THE ELECTRICAL VERSION . . . . . . . . .Wal Thornhill ---------------------------------------------- EDITOR'S NOTE: THE "VACATION MONTHS" (JULY AND AUGUST) WILL SEE ONE ISSUE OF THOTH EACH MONTH. BI-MONTHLY PUBLICATION WILL RESUME IN SEPTEMBER. ----------------------------------------------- OPPORTUNITIES IN CATASTROPHICS While reading about redshift anomalies, I came across a couple of comments by Halton Arp that would be of interest to catastrophists. The first is a re-telling of an old story: "Picture yourself during the early 1920's inside the dome of the 60-inch telescope on Mount Wilson. Milton Humason (is) ... talking to the well-known Carnegie Institute astronomer, Harlow Shapley ... Humason is showing Shapley stars he had found in the Andromeda Nebula that appeared and disappeared on photographs of that object. The famous astronomer very patiently explains that these objects could not be stars because the Nebula was a nearby gaseous cloud within our own Milky Way system. Shapley takes his handkerchief from his pocket and wipes the identifying marks off the back of the photographic plate. "Of course, Hubble came along in 1924 and showed that it was just these Cepheid variable stars in the Andromeda Nebula which proved it was a separate galaxy system." Arp's second comment has to do with the nature of scientists: "Some scientists have a strong interest in, and talent for research. Other scientists are more oriented toward the rewards and problems of interacting with people. The latter tend toward administration and science politics. ... it is probably true that if rivalry arises between members of these groups, the researcher has little or no short-run protection. And who is to say that those who control the institutions should not hire the people who think as they do? But if institutions become too large or fashionable to tolerate research outside the mainstream, then the best research may come to be done by people not trained or working at these institutions." One of the examples Arp gave of this was when catastrophics' old "friend", Harlow Shapley, who single-handedly squelched radio- astronomy in the USA, driving its best researchers to Australia, where radio astronomy and the researchers flourished. Both the "bigger than the Milky Way" universe and radio-astronomy survived and thrived in spite of the stumbling blocks Harlow Shapley tossed in their path. The discipline of Catastrophics has been debunked by Harlow Shapley and others in nearly every accepted avenue of research. This can mean only one thing: If there is anything of value in catastrophic research, it's going to be discovered by people working outside the accepted theoretical frameworks. Consider this an invitation. Amy Acheson Thoth at Whidbey.com ---------------------------------------------- GROUNDRULES FOR RECONSTRUCTING ANCIENT EVENTS (1) By David Talbott (dtalbott at teleport.com) We must now take up the matter of cross-cultural comparison and the use of evidence drawn from the patterns of human memory. "Ancient testimony is not credible unless it is supported by science" - in one form or another, I've heard that remark again and again. But there is a telling fallacy hidden in that assertion. It ignores the possibility - however remote this possibility may seem - that our ancestors witnessed things unknown to science, events that could force a revision in scientific understanding. As a rule, mainstream science is unfamiliar with the more ancient patterns of memory, and almost all modern perspectives are conditioned by a profound distrust of the ancient world. For centuries, in fact, it has been the mission of science to overcome the "myth and superstition" with which it associates our remote past. But we are challenging this common supposition, and we have claimed that a quite different perspective on the past is possible. In an earlier submission, we addressed the principle of converging testimony. We noted that the more unusual and specific the points of agreement between independent witnesses, the more confident we can be in these discrete memories. The principle was illustrated in the story of "The Unfortunate Peter Smith". Here we used an extreme example, in which the witnesses were prone, respectively, to hallucination, lying, and dyslexia. In this case the convergence was so precise and so out of the ordinary that - despite the general unreliability of the witnesses - the conclusion could not be doubted. In fact, we affirm this principle in our judicial processes all the time, and do not hesitate to employ it even when the life of the accused is at stake and no other body of evidence is available. In relation to the proposed Saturnian reconstruction, here is a way you might approach the issue of evidence. Try an experiment. Just for the fun of it, simply grant the claims of the theory! No need to believe anything, not even to believe that the hypothesized planetary configuration is "possible". This is only an experiment, designed to throw light on the question, WHAT COUNTS AS EVIDENCE? If you are unfamiliar with the general details of the theory, I suggest you let a single "snapshot" of the Saturnian configuration suffice for now. You will find an example on the Kronia website: http://www.kronia.com Go to the Saturn Theory page (it's listed on the menu to the left), and note the image on the top of the page. Though a snapshot of this sort cannot convey the more dynamic components of the story - including both stable and unstable phases of an evolving configuration - it is a useful starting point for an illustration of methodology. Imagine those planetary forms towering above us; three celestial spheres of much different sizes, juxtaposed in the sky, very close to the Earth. The largest of the spheres is the planet Saturn prior to acquisition of any rings. Within that sphere (i.e., in front of Saturn) appears a much smaller, highly luminous orb, the planet Venus, from which brilliant streamers radiate visually across the face of Saturn. And within Venus rests a still smaller reddish body, the planet Mars. Now imagine human communities obsessed with this spectacle in the sky, responding with a mixture of veneration and terror. And observe how, in the wake of the configuration's devastating collapse, human imagination exploded as well, cultures around the world striving relentlessly to remember and to re-enact those events in pictures and words and ritual practices. In this envisioned condition many different "mythical" interpretations would arise. But these interpretations could not fail to reflect the natural drama which inspired them. So you ask the question. If such a world existed, what would be the value of ancient testimony - of all those cultural records celebrating the dominating forms in the sky, or re-enacting those terrifying events? And would you not expect to find a vast range of words and symbols consistently pointing to the SAME celestial forms, no longer present? Or let us put it another way. In evaluating a new theory, does it make any sense to exclude what would clearly be the most crucial source of evidence if the theory is either correct, or on the right track? I know it will be easy for some to hear these words as a dismissal of conventional science, though this is not my intent. One does not have to draw any conclusions in order to see the dangers of circular reasoning when new possibilities arise. I am only suggesting that historical evidence must be allowed to speak for itself. If the evidence is weak, then it will be easily overruled by contrary opinions of science. If the conclusions are well supported by the evidence cited, then there is a basis for re-considering contrary scientific opinion. And if some of the conclusions are INESCAPABLE, as I believe some are, then one can be confident that there will be no conflict with physical facts as the specialists comes to interpret the facts correctly. By all means, let the scientists among us express every doubt. As we've said many times, the remembered events could not have occurred without leaving a vast trail of physical evidence. (I intend to suggest several lines of inquiry in the present series.) But all true explorers, whatever their background, will welcome a rigorous investigation of cultural memories from a new vantage point. They do not need to be told that the scientific mainstream has not always gotten the picture right. (Next, we will begin identifying the principles of a new methodology.) ---------------------------------------------- SATURNISTS PLAY MARBLES Excerpted from the Kronia List AMY ACHESON STARTED IT: Remember the marble game ... if you reach, blindly, into a bag of marbles and every handful you pull out has new varieties, you can expect that you're still at the beginning of cataloging the types of marbles in the bag. But if every handful contains a mixture of well-known varieties, you suspect that you've already discovered most of what the bag contains. Applied to comparative mythology, are you guys still coming up with the same old marbles? Or do you sometimes come across something entirely new? If so, what? DWARDU CARDONA REPLIES: In my case, mostly the same old TYPE of marbles with only SLIGHT differences. BUT, now and then, an entirely new kind of marble - a real gem. As to what these gems are, I'll have to wait until I get more like them in order to be able to compare THEIR slight differences and what these might entail. ERIC DOUMA ASKS: Has all mythology been already considered in one way or another with regard to the Saturn theory, or is there still mythological and/or legendary material out there that has never been checked as to its relevancy or consistency with the Saturn theory? DWARDU REPLIES: I can only speak for myself. No - not "all mythology" has yet been considered in regard to the Saturn theory. Yes - in MY case, there is still an awful lot of mythological material that has not yet been checked (or not checked well enough). EV COCHRANE ADDS: I would agree with Dwardu here. While I am not aware of any major mythological themes that have not been "assimilated" to the Saturn theory--dragon combat, deluge, dying god, warrior hero, ancient sun-god, clown, etc.--it stands to reason that there must be some. ERIC: I am assuming that if the answer is that most important mythological traditions have indeed been considered it is because those are regarded as the oldest and most reliable ones to testthe theory on. DWARDU: Correct. EV: Again I would agree with Dwardu with the caveat that myths first committed to writing in relatively recent times--such as the Irish traditions surrounding Cuchulainn--often preserve very old themes, while some traditions recorded very early on--the Enuma Elish, for example--appear very contaminated and are thus less reliable for reconstructing ancient history. ERIC: But, what can be done with the rest, if anything? DWARDU: More study, more analyses, AND A MORE OPEN MIND is required here. ERIC: IF the oldest and most reliable mythological traditions have indeed been completely analyzed with regard to the Saturn theory, what kind of work is there left to be done? DWARDU: For one thing, a chronological sequence of events THAT SATISFIES THE RECORD. Ev: Agreed. ERIC: Are there certain continents whose traditions have been neglected up to now and that still need such analytical work? DWARDU: In MY case - yes. Perhaps not quite NEGLECTED, and perhaps not necessarily CONTINENTS, but definitely myths from certain geographical areas not yet given serious attention. Again, in MY case, Australian aboriginal material comes immediately to mind; South America; huge areas in Africa; and elsewhere. ERIC: What parts of the Saturn theory are well worked out and what parts still need more work and confirmation from independent mythological sources? DWARDU: In MY opinion, what still needs to be worked out is the number and characteristics of the Martian and Venerian catastrophes; the aftermath to the break-up of the Saturnian configuration. What still needs to be ASCERTAINED are Talbott's claims that (a) Saturn wandered prior to settling down in the north celestial pole; (b) that Jupiter was hidden behind Saturn; and (c) that Jupiter was involved in the events FOLLOWING the break-up of the configuration. So that, as far as *I* am concerned, an awful lot of work still needs to be done. DAVE TALBOTT SAYS: [C]ertain broadly distributed themes have not yet been identified by proponents of the [Saturn] theory. That would seem to me to be a virtually certainty, since every year we've been able to add more themes to the list. I do not anticipate any likelihood that themes will be uncovered which stand in isolation from the general substratum of myth explained by the theory, however. It seems abundantly clear that there was a unique mythmaking epoch involving intensely experienced events - including the final collapse of the celestial order. In the immediate wake of those events, human imagination responded by formulating interpretations, the mythical archetypes; but this response quickly gave way to a relentless urge to HONOR the archetypes in a time when the events and celestial forms associated with them were no longer present. Of this collective urge, storytelling was only a small part. Of course, in the transmission of the stories over the centuries, there is not just a progressive degradation of the original integrity, but a natural psychological effect of distance and unfamiliarity. The gravity of the experience could only be diminished with time. And the meaning of the story elements would increasingly appear irrational or out of place, finding no explanation in natural experience. That is, of course, the reason why, with the rise of Greek rationalism, the mythical themes of tragedy became the themes of comedy as well. EV WROTE: One item which might be of interest ... in light of ... the Deluge myth is the possibility that the raven released by Noah might symbolize Mars, as the dove definitely symbolizes Venus. This possibility was first raised by Dave to me in a private conversation. At the time, it rang a familiar chord since I knew Nergal and Apollo were symbolized by ravens. Since that time I have found that virtually every Martian hero was given a raven form, the most obvious example being the American Indian hero Raven. DWARDU ADDS: And don't forget the Egyptian Horus. TIA ACHESON ASKS: Raven was Mars? I thought Raven was the creator, the ruler, the wisest one. Wouldn't that be Saturn? So tell me who was Saturn in the American Indian legends? DAVE T ANSWERS: Yes, in later accounts it is easy to mistake the trickster figure for the Saturnian creator, since the warrior-hero was a builder or "maker" of things. I made that mistake more than once in writing The Saturn Myth. I had simply not realized how the more passive creator or universal sovereign faded into the background over the centuries. Ritual activity and storytelling naturally required a focus on ACTIVITY, and unlike the displaced sovereign, the planet Mars provided innumerable vivid episodes, perfect for storytelling. As a rule, once storytelling was dissociated from its earlier ritual contexts, becoming a pleasurable pastime around campfires, the background figure would simply disappear. This is one of many reasons why, to find original contexts, all recurring story elements must be referred to their earliest documented expressions. PAM HANNAH CHIMES IN: This is a conundrum. I ... can't find any [American Indian] reference to Saturn per se. There are numerous creator deities - Hopi spider woman (greater creator who created her), Iroquois Orenda power, Algonquin Manitou, Sioux Wakan Tanka - but as Dave T. pointed out, they all tend to recede into the background because they're great spirits and they don't DO anything to make stories out of. The only definite planetary deity is the Morning Star - Mars of the Pawnee in Nebraska. And incidentally, theirs is the only Indian culture of North America I know of that practiced human sacrifice - but not anywhere near on the scale of the Aztecs - and only when Mars rose in the East. Funny thing is that there are polar configuration pictographs and petroglyphs all over the place - circle within a circle within a circle with radiating spokes (the radiant Venus) as well as spirals and crescents, so Saturn was presumably depicted in this, but I don't know of any evidence that the planet itself was worshipped by itself. EV ADDS: Typically the ancient sun-god in American Indian legends is to be identified with Saturn. In the Tsimshian tradition quoted by me in a recent Aeon, the sun-god is said to live in a dwelling together with Venus: "After reaching the sky, the visitor finds himself on a trail which leads to the house of the Sun chief. In this house the Sun lives with his daughter ... The Sun's daughter is the Evening Star." It is to this sacred dwelling that the warrior-hero (Mars) climbs along the celestial stairway. This said, the fact remains that the planet Saturn has yet to be securely identified in any extant native American sources, to the best of my knowledge. I have hopes that with the continuing decipherment of the Mesoamerican sources this situation will be rectified, but in the meantime this absence remains the most important "missing link" in the Saturnist's argument. PAM ASKS ANOTHER QUESTION: When Thor & Heracles & Indra were represented & depicted dressed up as women, did the various culture act it out? i.e., did they have ceremonies or whatever with someone representing the God dressed up as a woman, and if they did, wouldn't that have been cause for much hilarity? Wouldn't it have been just as funny in ancient times as it is now? I mean, it's basic schtick - like a pratfall. Wouldn't such ceremonies have evolved into fun festivals, like the boy king & the feast of fools in medieval times? Might also have mitigated the trauma of the Saturnian breakup & the time of terror. Just an idea. DAVE TALBOTT RESPONDS: Pam is to be congratulated for her insights on the comic element. Originally the archetypal warrior-hero is the servant of the central luminary and is highly active in the "creation". That role is fully documented globally. But it may be hard for some to imagine how such a celestial figure could emerge centuries later as a harlequin, jester, or fool. That is exactly what happened, however. Even the American Indian tricksters Coyote and Raven were remembered as having formerly been "great warriors". Their Pawnee counterpart is the ancestral warrior Morning Star, explicitly identified as the planet Mars. Though countless tales of these tricksters will sound as if they lived only a few generations in the past ("in the time of our grandfathers' grandfathers"), there are many instances in which the accounts preserved the original motif, recalling how Coyote or Raven had assisted the creator in his work, typically making a mess of things, but also facilitating the re-construction of the world. ---------------------------------------------- IMPACT: THE ELECTRICAL VERSION Wal Thornhill [Ed note: the following compares Wal Thornhill's description of electrical interactions between colliding bodies (from The Electric Universe (pg 100 of the notebook, pg 210 of the CD) to eyewitness accounts of the Tunguska event, June 30, 1908 (taken from CCNet Special 30/06/98).] >From Wal's Notebook: All of the glossy magazines depicting apocalyptic destruction from space show the same electrically sterile view of interactions between bodies in the solar system. ... In fact, long before physical contact can be achieved between two sizable bodies, their electrical imbalance will need to be dealt with. The two bodies will "feel" the presence of each other as soon as their plasma sheaths touch. In the case of a comet, its plasma sheath can measure millions of kilometers across. Travelling at 20 kilometers per second, a comet will cover one million kilometers in about 14 hours. So, for something of the order of a day, there will be odd electrical effects evident in weather, geomagnetism, auroras and possibly earthquakes. The electrical stress will finally build to the point where an electrical discharge will fly between the earth and the intruder with the strong likelihood that the intruder will be disrupted. This seems to have been the case for ... Tunguska where the bolide was destroyed before hitting the ground. EYEWITNESS ACCOUNTS: Curious Sun Effects at Night To the Editor of THE TIMES [3 July 1908] Sir, - Struck with the unusual brightness of the heavens, the band of golfers staying here strolled towards the links at 11 o'clock last evening in order that they might obtain an uninterrupted view of the phenomenon. Looking northwards across the sea they found that the sky had the appearance of a dying sunset of exquisite beauty. This not only lasted but actually grew both in extent and intensity till 2.30 this morning, when driving clouds from the east obliterated the gorgeous colouring. I myself was aroused from sleep at 1.15 a.m., and so strong was the light at this hour, that I could read a book by it in my chamber quite comfortably. At 1.45 a.m. the whole sky, N. and N.E., was a delicate salmon pink, and the birds began their matutinal song. No doubt others will have noticed this phenomenon, but as Brancaster holds an almost unique position in facing north to the sea, we who are staying here had the best possible view of it. Yours faithfully, Holcombe Ingleby, Dormy House Club, Brancaster, 1 July (1908) British Astronomical Association - At the monthly meeting held on Wednesday evening at Sion College, Victoria embankment, Mr G. J.Newbegin drew attention to the disturbed state of the solar atmosphere, showing a drawing and giving a description of a very large prominence that he had observed and measured in the morning of that day (1 July), and that showed unusual changes of form. Allusion was made by Mr E.W. Maunder and Mr H.P. Hollis (both of the Royal Observatory) of the long-lasting aurora of the previous evening. [from THE TIMES, 3 July 1908] In the North West, quite high above the horizon, the peasants saw a body shining very brightly (too bright for the naked eye) with a bluish-white light ... The sky was cloudless, except that low down on the horizon in the direction in which this glowing body was observed, a small dark cloud was noticed .... It was hot and dry and when the shining body approached the ground it seemed to be pulverized, and in its place a huge cloud of black smoke was formed and a loud crash, not like thunder, but as if from the fall of large stones or from gunfire, was heard. All the buildings shook and, at the same time, a forked tongue of flame broke through the cloud. All the inhabitants of the village ran out into the street in panic. The old women wept and everyone thought the end of the world was approaching [from the Irkutsk newspaper SIBIR, 2 July 1908] The noise was considerable but no stone fell. All the details of the fall of a meteorite here should be ascribed to the over-active imagination of impressionable people [from the Irkutsk newspaper SIBIR, 4 July 1908] Before setting out, [Leonid Alexeivich] Kulik wanted to spend several days recording interviews with Tungus eyewitnesses of the explosion.Lyuchetkan said that he knew of several such people and agreed to bring Kulik to them. Some of the Tungus Kulik approached were reluctant to talk about the event. Others became angry and refused outright even to mention it. But many were willing to speak with him.. Kulik was fascinated by the mystical aura that sometimes seemed to cloud descriptions. An enraged Ogdy had visited them, the Tungus maintained, and the fire god had put a curse on the epicenter region. Anyone who dared enter it surely would be cursed likewise. There even were accounts of herds of reindeer being sacrificed to appease the angry and vindictive god." [Roy A Gallant: The Day the Sky Split Apart, 1995] ---------------------------------------------- PLEASE VISIT THE KRONIA COMMUNICATIONS WEBSITE- http://www.kronia.com/~kronia/ Other suggested Web site URL's for more information about Catastrophics: Subscriptions to AEON, a journal of myth and science, may be ordered at the I-net address below: http://www.ames.net/aeon/ http://www.knowledge.co.uk/xxx/cat/sis/ http://www.flash.net/~cjransom/ http://www.knowledge.co.uk/xxx/cat/velikovskian/ http://www.access.digex.net/~medved/Catastrophism.html http://www.grazian-archive.com/ http://www.tcel.com/~mike/paper.html Immanuel Velikovsky Reconsidered, 10 Pensée Journals may be ordered at the I-net address below: http://nt.e-z.net/mikamar/default.html ----------------------------------------------- The THOTH electronic newsletter is an outgrowth of scientific and scholarly discussions in the emerging field of astral catastrophics. Our initial focus will be on a reconstruction of ancient astral myths and symbols in relation to a new theory of planetary history. Serious readers must allow some time for these radically different ideas to be fleshed out and for the relevant background to be developed. The general tenor of the ideas and information presented in THOTH is supported by the editor and publisher, but there will always be plenty of room for differences of interpretation. We welcome your comments and responses. Amy Acheson, editor thoth at whidbey.com New readers are referred to earlier installments in issues of THOTH posted on the Kronia website listed above. Go to the THOTH page and click on the image titled "Thoth: the Egyptian God of Knowledge" to access the back issues. X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 Content-Length: 2774