-- The Other Group --
the success and failure of arguments
countering alternative cosmologies

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Ivar Nielsen:
Talbott's Saturn Theory Disputed

[editorial insertion, from Nielsen's introduction page:] I am now living close to the biggest Stone Age/Bronze Age Rock Carving field in Denmark, located at Madsebakke near Allinge, on the northern part of Bornholm.

The contents on this website are mostly based on some spiritual dreams and visions from a period of years beginning from 1974. The Visions went both backwards and forwards in time, and it was very difficult for me to understand the meaning in the beginning because nobody had told me that it was possible to have spiritual so called out of the body experiences. And, besides this, these dreams and visions was both sweet and so strong at the same time, that I felt my soul was on the brink of life and death.

After a long period of time (12 years in fact), I realized that my dreams and visions was very mythological and that I have had some experiences from a very basic origin. Many inspirations came to me and I saw more and more the Ancient Way of spiritual education and the Ancient Way of explaining the Story of Creation. (My initial Vision was of a Bronze Age Rock Carving Ship taking me mentally back some 4.500 years)

Having had those inspirations, I became more and more aware and interested in the Native Way of thinking. My ordinary religious and cultural background [faded] and looked more and more as a "thin cup of tea" compared to my inspirations.

The inspirations have opened my mind in a intuitive, critical and natural way of understanding the different parts of life, included the modern scientific way of thinking. I can see many examples from the old mythological way of explaining the Story of Creation and I am trying to compare the old stories with the modern scientific discoveries from Astronomy and Cosmology.

It is my believe that Native People all over the World have had the same original basic visions for their worship. Ideas, symbols, pictures, sculptures and stories are much the same all over the World because they are our common knowledge and our primary World Wide Web.

How to confuse a very secular "myth" and raise it to nonsense!

Quotations from, and remarks (#) to, David Talbott`s book: The Saturn Myth,

Saturn Myth Reconstructed pages 35-36


'From the foregoing evidence a distinctive portrait of Saturn emerges. In the earliest age recalled by the ancients the planet-- or proto-planet--came forth from the cosmic sea to establish dominion over the primeval Cosmos. (#1) The planet-god ruled as the solitary, central light, worshiped as the god One--the only god in the beginning. (#2)'

  • 1) How can planet Saturn "come forth from the cosmic sea and establish dominion over the primeval Cosmos"? Was planet Saturn mythological created as the first of all? What are the logics of such a mythological statement?

  • 2) How can a planet be "the only god in the beginning"?
    'Saturn's epoch left a memory of such impact that later generations esteemed the god as the Universal Monarch, the first and ideal king, during whose rule occurred the prehistoric leap, from barbarianism to civilization. (#3) Throughout Saturn's era of cosmic harmony no seasonal vicissitudes threatened men with hunger or starvation, and men suffered neither labor nor war. (#4)'

  • 3) From which mythological supreme being did humans learn of civilization? The Planet Saturn?

  • 4) From which major superior fertility deities was all life created? The inferior planet Saturn?
    'In the "creation" Saturn, the primal Seed, (#5) ejected the fiery material ("primeval matter"), which congealed into a circle of lesser lights (the Cosmos). The myths describe this resounding birth of the secondary gods as Saturn's "speech: Saturn was the Word or voice of heaven". (#6)'

  • 5) The planet Saturn as "the primal Seed"? Did the planet Saturn create everything in our Solar system and in our Milky Way galaxy?

  • 6) Which deity "first voice" was the first to set of the creation? The inferior planet Saturn?
    'The ancients conceived Saturn as the visible intelligence bringing forth the Cosmos as his own body "(#7) and regulating its revolutions. Thus was the planet denominated the Heaven Man--a being eventually recalled as the prototype of the human race--the first ancestor. " (#8)'

  • 7) What intelligence can the planet Saturn provide? Does planet Saturn have the shape of a body "to bring forth"?

  • 8) How can planet Saturn possibly be a "prototype of the human race" and "the first ancestor"?
    'When Saturn departed the world, the Golden Age catastrophically ended. This is the universal tale of the dying god, the overthrown "first king" or fallen "first man." "(#9)'

  • 9) How can planet Saturn be a Universal tale of the overthrown "first king" or "fallen first man"? Was there nothing before planet Saturn was created?
    '"Whether betrayed by a dark force, or chastised for having committed the forbidden sin, or inflicted with old age and a weariness of mankind, " (#10) the result is the same: a corruption of nature and a progressive worsening of the human condition. The story is the first--and one could almost say, only--theme of tragedy and drama in antiquity: Saturn's Golden Age came to a sudden and catastrophic end, either caused by or accompanied by the fall of the great god.'

  • 10) How can a planet Saturn "commit a forbidden sin"?
    '"That the distant planet Saturn should loom at the center of ancient rites is a fact which conventional wisdom will not easily explain."(#11) One looks in vain for any characteristic of Saturn, the present-day planet, which might account for Saturn, the primeval god. "(#12) Could the present speck of light have provoked the ancient memory of a creator standing alone in the deep? Or produced the universal legend of the first king and the lost age of abundance? Or inspired the myth of the Heaven Man? " (#13)'

  • 11) How can a planet Saturn "loom at the center of ancient rites" devaluating the Sun and other major heavenly bodies as star constellations and the Milky Way contours?

  • 12) How can an inferior planet be a "primeval god"? Did the planet Saturn create everything before anything else?

  • 13) How can planet Saturn mythological possibly be described as a "heaven man"?
    'If, as is almost universally believed, the heavens have undergone no major changes in astronomically recent times, then the myth--however meticulously developed--can only be a fabrication, produced through the purest disregard for actual observation and experience. (#14) I do not ask the reader to ignore this possi- bility, and I am fully aware that to many mythologists myth and fancy are synonymous. Since the argument of this book rests on the coherence of the Saturn myth as a whole, and since many details remain to be covered (#15) I urge only a willingness to consider the evidence in its entirety. Whatever the true origins of the myth, it constituted for the ancients a compelling vision--a vision deserving careful study by all students of history, religion, and mythology. (#16)' Quote unquote.

  • 14) Maybe it is possible that a "purest disregard for actual observation and experience" in the construction of The Saturn Myth not have regarded the real mythological and astronomical human experiences?

  • 15) Yes indeed, many obvious mythological details remain to be covered - and to be reinterpreted. Included the right details.

  • 16) Yes, the true origins of the myths constituted a compelling vision for the ancients. Unfortunately, not many scholars have the mythological insight, fantasy, spiritual or visionary capabilities to grasp even the most obvious details and their real mythological and cosmological meaning.

  • 17) Regarding the mythological heritage, it is not enough to have the brilliant intellectual capacity - one also has to have the genuine spiritual capacity of our ancestors.


    Explaining link: [http://native-science.net]

    NB: In this test I've focused on the issues of Planetary and Milky Way deities and their mythological and cosmological connections and qualities. Regarding some Star Constellation deities, of course a constellation of Orion also must come in consideration when dealing with mythology.

    It is indeed remarkable that modern human beings and that the modern science have big, big troubles understanding the otherwise supposed ancestral "primitive knowledge"! It really raises the question of the genuine and natural intelligence level of modern human beings.

    If someone thinks there is a real mystery in understanding the Myths and other human matters - it's because of lacking the natural ability to observe the Nature - and even more because of a huge intellectual and scientific "besservissen"-neglect of the genuine spiritual Wisdom of our Ancestors.

    July 1. 2009
    Allinge, Bornholm, Denmark

    Ivar Nielsen,
    Natural Philosopher
    nielsen.ivar (at) gmail.com

    Every time a Roman Planetary deity is mentioned in the Saturn Myth, just insert a Milky Way Deity in stead in order to get the right Mythological explanation from the Mythological stories all over the World.

    URL of this page: https://saturniancosmology.org/othergroup/ivar-sat.php
    This page last updated: Thursday, December 1st, 2011
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    Feel free to email me with any comments or corrections.
    jno (at) othergroup (dot) net
    I'll be glad to add relevant comments or essays

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