mirrored file at http://SaturnianCosmology.Org/ For complete access to all the files of this collection see http://SaturnianCosmology.org/search.php ========================================================== THOTH A Catastrophics Newsletter VOL II, No. 16 Oct 15, 1998 EDITOR: Amy Acheson PUBLISHER: Michael Armstrong LIST MANAGER: Brian Stewart CONTENTS HERONS AND CORMORANTS . . . . . . . . . . . . Amy Acheson THE COMET VENUS AND THE COMPARATIVE METHOD . .Dave Talbott ANCIENT FLYING MACHINES . . .excerpts from the kronia list MORE ON INTRINSIC REDSHIFTS . . . . . . . . .Wal Thornhill ---------------------------------------------- HERONS AND CORMORANTS by Amy Acheson Herons stand in shallow water for hours, waiting for dinner to swim by. Cormorants perch on driftwood and pilings, hanging their wings out to dry like miniature Batman signals. Seagulls drop clams and crabs on the rocks to break open their shells. Each is displaying behavior that is part of both their day-to-day survival and their definition as a species. What behavior defines the human species? For one thing, humans fantasize. They make up stories -- fiction, if you will -- to explain the world around them. And they find ways; art, drama, books, universities, the internet; to preserve and communicate these fantasies to other humans. In recent centuries, scientists have fantasized that the world has been stable for much longer than the human species has existed. In order to accept this fantasy, they've also had to imagine that the myths of the ancients were not just fiction, but untrue, devoid of any meaning beyond symbolism. Because at face value, the myths tell a contradictory story: one of instability and catastrophe. But denying the myths wasn't a difficult step to take, because the myths are "fiction." They violate the common sense and mathematics which support the fantasy that everything is stable. Now Saturnists have a new fantasy. They imagine they can recreate the events which inspired the myriad myths by sifting these fictional tales for common elements. And the results are startling: Saturn is a monarch associated with time, carries a scythe or rides in a boat at the north pole. Venus has long hair or feathers or a tail, sometimes radiant, sometimes destructive. Mars grows large and shrinks, climbs a mountain or a ladder, is wounded in the face or thigh. Even in an era of reason and stability, it still makes one heck of a good tale for storytellers to share around the campfire/internet. --Amy Acheson thoth at Whidbey.com ---------------------------------------------- THE COMET VENUS AND THE COMPARATIVE METHOD by Dave Talbott (dtalbott at teleport.com) Over the next few issues of THOTH, I'll be toggling between two threads - one on the methodology of the historical investigation and the other on the physical implications of the theory. We are now back to methodology, and once again James Fitton will provide the catalyst, this time for a look at the myths and symbols of the "comet" Venus. Among the representatives of Venus, according to Immanuel Velikovsky, was the Greek goddess Athena, a power born from the head of Zeus "like a blazing star which the lord of heaven shoots forth, bright and scattering sparks." Since the star trailing flame or sparks is a universal hieroglyph for the comet, various translators have rendered the expression in this line from the _Iliad_ as just that - a "comet". But is this comet-like goddess properly identified as the planet Venus? Fitton wrote- > "... Let me close my paper, however, by examining a > cardinal point in Velikovsky's book-- his > identification of the Greek goddess Pallas Athene > with the planet Venus. All the substantial evidence > that Velikovsky draws from the Greek myths vanishes > if this identification fails. > > "What is Velikovsky's proof? > > "He begins by asserting that Pallas Athene was > identified with the Babylonian Ishtar. Such a statement > is hardly important. After Alexander's conquests the > Greeks became aware of the religions of the ancient > Near East, and frequently sought points of similarity > with their own. Such similarities were often very > superficial. Ishtar may have had something in common > with Athene, but it would be very surprising if she > resembled Athene in every respect. Velikovsky also > says, 'Anaitis of the Iranians, too, is identified as > Pallas Athene and as the planet Venus.' I checked > Velikovsky's reference. The authority says that > Anaitis was identified by the Romans with Minerva > (Greek Athene) and with Venus (i.e., the goddess > Venus, or Aphrodite of the Greeks)[fn. 27: F. Cumont, > _Les Mysteres de Mithra_, 3rd ed. (1913), p. 111]. > Since Velikovsky is at great pains to point out that > the goddess Venus was not the planet of the same > name, his statement here is quite misleading. > Velikovsky then quotes Plutarch to show that Athene > was identified with Isis, and he quotes Pliny to show > that Isis was the planet Venus. It all seems > mathematically very correct: Athene equals Isis > equals planet Venus. But identifications of this type > were common in the Roman empire, a time when Europe was > literally flooded with oriental cults. Isis, for > example, was identified >with the goddess Demeter and > with Aphrodite, as well as with Athene. Since > identifications varied so much Velikovsky's formula is > quite misleading. Moreover, even in the passage cited > by Velikovsky, Pliny contradicts him. He says that the > planet Venus was identified with Juno (i.e., the Greek Hera). He says nothing about Athene. In one paragraph, Fitton has combined several erroneous statements with some highly dubious reasoning. There is no one who has examined the astronomical associations of Venus with a more discerning eye than Ev Cochrane, publisher of the journal AEON. Here was his observation on the above paragraph- > On virtually every issue raised here, Velikovsky > is absolutely right and Fitton wrong. Athena > *is* comparable to Ishtar in many respects [See > Cochrane's article on Athena -AEON II:3- for numerous > examples and further evidence that Athena is > to be identified with Venus]. Athena *was* identified > with Anaitis and the Iranian goddess *was* identified > with the planet Venus by the ancient Iranians > themselves as well as by numerous modern scholars. > ...Athena *was* identified with Isis, and > the latter goddess was identified with the planet > Venus by the authorities cited by Velikovsky. > That Isis offers an Egyptian parallel to the > Sumerian Inanna and Akkadian Ishtar nearly > everyone agrees. If Inanna/Ishtar are to be > identified with the planet Venus, as all learned > authorities agree, then it stands to reason that > the same holds true of Isis. Moreover, the comparative approach will enable one to go far beyond explicit astronomical identifications, to confirm that ALL of the goddesses cited by Fitton - and hundreds of other goddesses as well - do fall under the Venus archetype. Planet lists and empirical astronomy came relatively late (as we should expect, since there WERE no planets moving on predictable orbits when the myths were born), and the fact is that most ancient tribes possessed no observational discipline for preserving the link of gods and planets. But are widespread cultures telling the SAME STORY in their myths and rites? If so, the Venus identifications affirmed by ancient cultures that DID develop the necessary disciplines are more than sufficient to make our case. But Fitton continues- > There is, to my knowledge, no evidence that the > Greeks ever identified Pallas Athene with the planet > Venus. It is in fact interesting to note that, of all > the different Greek gods and goddesses associated, at > different times, with this planet, the only one > missing in one standard discussion is Athene Yet if > the great cosmological catastrophes that Velikovsky > describes did occur, and if, moreover, they were > remembered, as he says, in the world's mythologies, it > could hardly be that the Greeks would have entirely > forgotten this important identification, which alone > provided the clue to the interpretation of those myths. To this, Cochrane replies- > Fitton is right that the ancient Greeks apparently > never identified Athena with Venus. So what? The > Greeks also forgot the original celestial > identification of Apollo (Mars). As I have documented > in "The Birth of Athena," to be supplemented in large > part by my forthcoming book "The Many Faces of Venus," > there can be no doubt but that Athena is to be > identified with the planet Venus. The fact that > Velikovsky deduced this identification solely > from a comparative analysis of the Greek myths--and > with little help from the Greeks themselves--says > a great deal about his insight into the origins of > ancient myth. Precisely so. The comparative method does not demand that every culture identify gods and goddesses with planets, since that would require astronomical knowledge that did not exist among most ancient peoples. But the comparative approach does work, and with surprising dependability. Patterns which would otherwise be missed can be tracked from one culture to another around the world, then linked to reliable planetary identifications within those cultures which developed sophisticated knowledge of the planets. These astronomers, from Babylon to China, from India to the Americas proclaimed with one voice that the mother goddess was Venus and no other planet. But the Saturn theory offers something more - a highly concrete model, drawing our attention to well-defined forms in the sky. These forms are, in fact, so tangible, so specifically drawn, that disproof of the model will be incredibly easy if we are off the mark. Unexplained superstitions and symbols of comets provide a good example, and the interconnected images can be applied to ANY well-documented goddess-figure. Name the goddess, and a Saturn theory researcher can point you to the vividly-presented cometary aspect of that goddess. The Saturn theory claims-- 1) that ancient fears, images, and beliefs about comets were inspired by a "Great Comet" remembered around the world; 2) that the Great Comet was the PLANET Venus, prototype of the mother goddess; 3, that the story of the Great Comet is the worldwide story of the mother goddess in her "terrible aspect". We will claim, therefore, that global myths associated with VENUS account for the worldwide images of COMETS. In fact, none of the ancient comet-ideas can be explained by the familiar behavior of comets in our sky today, any more than ancient images of Venus could be explained by the present behavior of that planet. The focus of ancient memories is on an entirely different sky. In our reconstruction, the story has a beginning and an end, with many fascinating episodes in between. And it has a reference in something SEEN, a congregation of planets that can be reconstructed down to many remarkable details. Our reference for now will be the image on the Kronia Communications website, presently under construction by Steven Parsons. Go to the page on the "Saturn theory" at- www.kronia.com There you will find a single "snapshot" of the evolving configuration, enabling us to illuminate the ancient goddess, with stunning results. Since Athena is the figure cited by Fitton, we will let this goddess serve as our first example. [NOTE TO NEWCOMERS: The early evolution of the planetary assembly is presented in a series of "snapshots" in the notebook, "Symbols of an Alien Sky". It is also the subject of the 90-minute documentary, "Remembering the End of the World." Both the notebook and the documentary are available from Kronia Communications.] The story of the comet Venus begins with Venus as the great "star" depicted in the center of a vastly larger body, the gas giant Saturn. As seen from the Earth, luminous streamers of the central "star", spread across the face of the larger sphere. As we have already noted, the translators of the early religious and astronomical texts often render this larger body as "the sun". But the early astronomical identification of the "sun" with the planet Saturn is beyond dispute, even if the experts may disagree as to what to do with the anomaly. Equally enigmatic is the presence of a smaller dark or reddish sphere inside the central star. Comparative analysis will identify this sphere as the planet Mars. Ancient races called this the "Great Conjunction" of the golden age. That is not just a strange idea. Around the world, and to the point of obsession, sky-worshippers drew pictures of it. And the pictures they drew are very much like the pictures you yourself would draw if planets loomed in this fashion above YOU. Nothing in our sky is remotely similar to it. Yet the underlying form is universal and was a focal point of a vast lexicon of rites and symbols. (The fact that the known sizes of the depicted planets allow for this very image is no small matter either, considering the huge variation in actual planetary diameters! See "Symbols of an Alien Sky" pp. 71-94.) The comparative approach identifies a wide range of mythical images prompted by the appearance of Venus in this planetary configuration: Great Star, Great Comet Long-haired, fiery-haired goddess Radiant heart, soul, or "life" of the primeval sun god (Saturn) Visible glory, radiance, majesty, splendor, power, or strength of the primeval sun Nave (hub) and spokes of the "sun" wheel (Saturn's wheel) Radiant eye of the "sun"; eye with streaming tears Rayed crown worn by the warrior-hero (Mars) Feathered headdress worn by the warrior-hero Shield or protection of the warrior-hero Cross-cultural investigation will show that these Venus- or goddess-images are among the dominant symbols of the ancient world. They are certainly not mere abstractions. To be sure, the mythical content involves a relentless use of metaphor, but from what human experience did the metaphors arise? The texts, pictographs, monuments, and ritual re-enactments make clear that the subject is a visual spectacle in the sky, involving prodigious forms and cosmic upheaval. The result was the most far-reaching explosion of human imagination the world has ever known. The "soul" of the ancient sun god, the god's "majesty" or "strength" was a tangible, highly visible, highly active FORM IN THE SKY, recorded in astonishingly similar terms around the world. If scholars as a whole have failed to see the coherent message it is only because, lacking a concrete reference, they did not pause to notice the distinctive patterns. The breakthrough comes from seeing, beyond any reasonable doubt, that the existence of these patterns REQUIRES an external reference. So too, once this reference is discerned, numerous additional patterns are impossible to miss. In the case of Athena, for example, I would challenge readers to put the model to a test through a little independent research. See if you can answer these questions: 1) What are the commonly-cited attributes and associations of Athena? 3) Do you find the conventional explanations of the goddess' attributes persuasive? 2) How might our model explain these diverse aspects and symbols? 4) Can you describe how ONE feature of our model - the appearance of Venus - will explain MORE THAN ONE attribute of the goddess? By working with the model you will discover an ability to explain what cannot be explained by traditional approaches. And the more you descend to specific details, the more definitive the tests will be. I would like to hear from anyone who might invest in this little experiment. Perhaps I could then reproduce the results for THOTH readers, in connection with our next submission to this thread: "The Warring Goddess Athena" ---------------------------------------------- ANCIENT FLYING MACHINES excerpts from the kronia list J. CALVIN BARKELY ASKS: The question inevitably arises with regard to the Myths and Legends of people flying. How and where do such nonsensical concepts arise? In particular, those which include Men riding inside a mechanical flying machine? How can primitive peoples conceptualize "mechanical" prior to the advent of the mechanical age: is this not a daunting question, worthy of consideration while reflecting on these matters? . . . several Ancient Indian Manuscripts mention in detail mechanical flying machines, and lest we forget, there was also the very well known account in the Bible of Ezekial, who saw the "wheel". Now, this wheel was a flying machine which carried Ezekial off yonder somewhere, as I recall, and it was also noted that "people" of some sort were riding in it. The Ancient Indian Texts are most interesting, with numerous accounts of people, or Gods, riding "in" them, waging War, making love, sipping Tea, etc. Legends of the Hopi Indians cite the "Gods" or people who came to visit them from the sky, riding in some kind of a mechanical flying device. So we have reference to flying machines which carry people from Egypt, India, North America and South America. J. Calvin Barkley EV COCHRANE CHALLENGES: As a first step towards a rational inquiry, why don't you cite one of these ancient myths describing a man flying "inside a mechanical flying machine?" I suspect that, upon examination, we will find nothing which can properly be described as "mechanical" or advanced in technology. DWARDU CARDONA PROVIDES REFERENCES: Whoa there, Ev. I think J.C. is here alluding to the MAHABHARATA and RAMAYANA in which flying "machines," called "puspakas," are liberally mentioned. Check here also a book titled WARFARE IN ANCIENT INDIA by one Dikshittar, published by Macmillan in 1952. KIP FARR PROVIDES PICTURES: http://www.aas-ra.org/pictures/evdcdrom/ KAREN TACKETT COMMENTS: . . . looking at those bird/planes instantly made me think "comet." I'm trying to learn the archetypal way of looking at things and that tail going in a vertical spread looked as if you put "wings" on a comet shape. Aren't some of the myth stories talking about fire birds? The "anatomy" of those bird/planes don't line up with real birds but it might make sense if we are talking about a mythical bird. DAVE TALBOTT WRITES: Yes, I've seen these references to flying "machines" myself in Hindu epic literature, and elsewhere. I never collected these instances, but my impression was that the translators used the word "machine" loosely, where the actual meaning may have been closer to our word "contraption". DWARDU CARDONA COMMENTS: Actually, the translators did not use the word "machines," loosely or otherwise, which is why I placed the word "machines" between inverted commas. In the Hindu literature in question, various different terms are used, one of the most common being "car celestial." MORE FROM DAVE TALBOTT: A reading of this material from the vantage point of the Saturn theory: The "chariot of the gods" was, in later epochs, virtually incomprehensible to the storytellers because the original celestial references had disappeared long before their time. Progressively diluted and confused human concepts could not accurately represent the original "vehicles" of the gods. Hence, the only way to get to the roots of the traditions is to follow them backwards to their first occurrences, where you will meet the great wheel turning in the sky, the prototype for the later flying "wagons", "chariots" and "contraptions" of gods and heroes. EV COCHRANE ADDS: Dave is exactly right, here, so it seems to me. In my article "Indra's theft of the Sun-God's Wheel," I discussed various examples of wheel-riding heroes. Indra is perhaps the most obvious of these figures, but there are quite a few. ---------------------------------------------- MORE ON INTRINSIC REDSHIFTS Wal Thornhill Galaxy found with redshift 6.68! A new record has been set for the highest spectroscopically determined redshift of a galaxy - and it is not likely to stand for long. The new STIS instrument of the Hubble Space Telescope is making that possible. [See full story at]: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/5599/mirror/104.html [Ed note: in light of the previous announcement of a new record for redshift of a galaxy, I'm printing this as a reminder that velocity has never has been proven the only interpretation of redshift. It has serious anomalies on galactic and quasar scales, and a few quirks on the stellar scale.] [The following passage] provides ever more confirmation for the Electric Universe model. It is . . . from a joint paper of Halton Arp and . . . Tom Van Flandern, published in Physics Letters A 164 (1992) pp. 268,9. "If the younger age of a galaxy is the parameter which governs the higher intrinsic redshift of the object then we should look to see if stars also have intrinsic redshifts. As soon as we do this we see that there is massive unexplained evidence for the youngest stars having the highest redshifts in our own galaxy, in nearby galactic clusters, in nearby companion galaxies like the Magellanic Clouds and even in the youngest stars of more distant galaxies [24]. This evidence called the K effect (and later the Trumpler effect ) goes back to 1911 when the first stars in our galaxy were being measured spectroscopically. The initial discoverers of this effect wisely refrained from concluding that the youngest stars in our galaxy were expanding like a relativistically unstable big bang. But the effect has not been explained. It is possible the same effect observed in the extragalactic nebulae will now stimulate its study in stars? Nearby stars can be studied in great astrophysical detail. But whether or not this study will help to reveal the cause of the intrinsic redshift, that effect must be at least empirically corrected for in all studies of stars and galaxies in order to obtain true velocities. All the basic kinematics and dynamics of star systems, galaxies and aggregates of galaxies depends on having trustworthy velocities. Apparently many velocities are much less than they are commonly believed to be so that massive recomputation will have to take place throughout astronomy - from cosmology to stars." [24] H. Arp, Redshifts of high luminosity stars - The K effect, the Trumpler effect and mass loss corrections, submitted to Mon. Not. R. Astron. Soc. I don't get any feeling at all that astronomers and astrophysicists are in any mood for the grand-daddy of all paradigm shifts. But it has to come. Wal Thornhill ---------------------------------------------- PLEASE VISIT THE KRONIA COMMUNICATIONS WEBSITE: http://www.kronia.com Other suggested Web site URL's for more information about Catastrophics: Subscriptions to AEON, a journal of myth and science, may be ordered at the I-net address below: http://www.ames.net/aeon/ http://www.knowledge.co.uk/xxx/cat/sis/ http://www.flash.net/~cjransom/ http://www.knowledge.co.uk/xxx/cat/velikovskian/ http://www.access.digex.net/~medved/Catastrophism.html http://www.grazian-archive.com/ Immanuel Velikovsky Reconsidered, 10 Pensée Journals may be ordered at the I-net address below: http://nt.e-z.net/mikamar/default.html ----------------------------------------------- The THOTH electronic newsletter is an outgrowth of scientific and scholarly discussions in the emerging field of astral catastrophics. Our focus is on a reconstruction of ancient astral myths and symbols in relation to a new theory of planetary history. Serious readers must allow some time for these radically different ideas to be fleshed out and for the relevant background to be developed. The general tenor of the ideas and information presented in THOTH is supported by the editor and publisher, but there will always be plenty of room for differences of interpretation. We welcome your comments and responses. New readers are referred to earlier issues of THOTH posted on the Kronia website listed above. Go to the free newsletter page and double click on the image of Thoth, the Egyptian God of Knowledge, to access the back issues.