mirrored file at http://SaturnianCosmology.Org/ For complete access to all the files of this collection see http://SaturnianCosmology.org/search.php ========================================================== *updated & links checked, 29 April 2003* ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The real heart of the age-of-the-earth debate (if "debate" is the right word) is always radiometric dating. There are lots of ways to guesstimate ages, and geologists knew the earth was /old/ a long time ago (and I might add that they were mostly Christian creationist geologists). But they didn't know /how old/. Radiometric dating actually allows the measurement of absolute ages, and so it is deadly to the argument that the earth cannot be more than 10,000 years old. Radiometric methods measure the time elapsed since the particular radiometric clock was reset. Radiocarbon dating, which is probably best known in the general public, works only on things that were once alive and are now dead. It measures the time elapsed since death, but is limited in scale to no more than about 50,000 years ago. Other methods, such as Uranium/Lead, Potassium/Argon, Argon/Argon and others, are able to measure much longer time periods, and are not restricted to things that were once alive. Generally applied to igneous rocks (those of volcanic origin), they measure the time since the molten rock solidified. If that happens to be longer than 10,000 years, then the idea of a young-Earth is called into question. If that happens to be billions of years, then the young-Earth is in big trouble. As of January, 1999, The oldest rocks found on earth are 4.031 ± 0.003 billion years old (meaning it has been that long since the molten rocks solidified and thus reset their internal clocks). This is reported in the paper /Priscoan (4.00-4.03 Ga) orthogneisses from northwestern Canada/ by Samuel A. Bowring & Ian S. Williams; Contributions to Mineralogy and Petrology 134(1): 3-16, January 1999. The previous record was 3.96 billion years, set in 1989. The putative age of the Earth, about 4,500,000,000 years is based on the radiometrically measured age of meteorites, and is also about 500,000,000 years older than the oldest rocks. But regardless of the accuracy of this age for the earth, the existence of rocks circa 4,000,000,000 years old puts the squeeze on a 10,000 year old Earth. So the natural response from a young-Earth perspective is to claim that radiometric dating is inaccurate or untrustworthy. Unfortunately, while the young-Earthers are long on criticism, they are short on support. It's easy to /assert/ that radiometric methods don't work, but it's quite another thing to /prove/ it. This the young-Earth creationist regularly fails to do. I am not going to try to write a web-treatise on radiometric dating myself, simply because much better qualified writers have already done a much better job than I could. This is a list of resources, some on the web, some not, which can be consulted by anyone interested in learning more about how radiometric dating is done, or in responding to arguments criticising radiometric dating. My purpose is to show, through these resources that young-Earth creationist criticisms of radiometric dating are inadequate at best. So long as radiometric dating stands as scientifically valid, then the assertion of a young-Earth is falsified by direct observation. The argument from radiometriic dating is the strongest scientific argument that can be brought to bear on this issue, in my opinion. There may be some sense of repetition, as there are a number of one-page, introductory type entries. But I put them all in anyway, figuring some readers would understand one more easily than the other. Direct responses to specific creationist sources <#resp1> Responses to general creationist arguments <#resp2> Reliability of radiometric dating <#reliability> Introductory articles <#intro> Advanced articles <#advanced> Radiocarbon dating <#carbon> Other resources <#other> Books <#books> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Responding to Creationists - Part 1* Direct responses to specific creationist sources ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * Comments on "The Radiometric Dating Game" - Part 1 * Comments on "The Radiometric Dating Game" - Part 2 * Comments on "The Radiometric Dating Game" - Part 3 Parts 1 & 2 By Dr. Kevin R Henke, Part 3 by Dr. David Plaisted Dr. Kevin Henke was at the time a post doctoral fellow in the Department of Chemistry at the University of Kentucky . He is now (April 2003) on the faculty of the Deptartment of Geological Sciences at the same school. Dr. David Plaisted earned his PhD in computer science from Stanford University in 1976, and is currently Professor of Computer Science at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill . A Creation Perspective is the title of Dr. Plaisted's creation page. It is an extensive collection of pro-creationist material that extends well beyond radiometric dating. So far as I know all of the material was written by Dr. Plaisted. One of those articles, "The Radiometric Dating Game ", which also appears in the True Origins Archive , was the focus of Dr. Henke's Criticism. Part 1 is a critique posted by Dr. Henke on the talk.origins newsgroup in early December 1998. Part 2 and Part 3 constitute the text of a discussion between Henke & Plaisted, that followed the posting of Henke's original critique; they date from late December 1998. Part 2 was provided by Henke; it is Plaisted's response to the critique with Henke's posted comments. Part 3 was provided by Plaisted, and are his remarks in further response to Henke. A Reply to Dr. Henke and Others is a new page by David Plaisted, in direct response to Henke's criticism's posted here, and in response to this Radiometric Dating Resource List as well. Look for this page to change, or for new responses to appear, as Dr. Plaisted continues his own research. There is also another copy of this page, though perhaps not as current as his own, on the true origins archive as well. * Geochronology /Kata/ John Woodmorappe * Schimmrich Responds to John Woodmorappe's rebuttal By Steven H. Schimmrich Schimmrich is working on his PhD in Structural Geology at the University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign . He is currently on the faculty in the Department of Math & Physical Sciences at Ulster Community College , Stone Ridge, New York. He is also a member of the Affiliation of Christian Geologists John Woodmorappe is a pseudonymous pro young Earth creationist, and allegedly a scientist. He is the author of several books and papers; one of those papers, /Radiometric Dating Reappraised/ is the target of Schimmrich's original critique. Woodmorappe responded to that critique, hence Schimmrich's additional response. Since Woodmorappe is a popular source for pro young-Earth creationists, this detailed discussion of his work by a qualified Christian geologist is a good reference source. * Carbon-14 and Radiometric Dating * Woodmorappe's Collection of Bad Dates By David Matson Part of Dave Matson's " How Good Are Those Young Earth Arguments ", an extensive collection of material in response to young-Earth creationist Kent Hovind. "/Carbon-14 and Radiometric dating/" is a collection of six articles in response to Hovind's "/Several Faulty Assumptions are used in Radiometric Dating/". "/Woodmorappe's Collection of Bad Dates/" is a critique of John Woodmorappe's collection of about 350 allegedly "anomalous" bad radiometric dates, which Woodmorappe intends as evidence that radiometric dating does not work. Dave Matson is a mathematician and editor of his own Oak Hill Free Press . * ICR and the RATE Project Geophysicist Dr. Joe Meert responds to the reported results from the R.A.T.E. (Radioisotopes and the Age of The Earth) project, a program out of the Institute for Creation Research (ICR), one of the leading young-Earth creationist organizations (see their Impact 301 , July 1998). Dr. Meert demonstrates the scientific weakness of the study. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Responding to Creationists - Part 2* Responses to general creationst arguments ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * Common Creationist Criticism's of Mainstream Dating Methods By Chris Stassen Part of Stassen's FAQ file The Age of the Earth , which also deals with many other young-Earth assertions besides radiometric dating. * Radiometric Dating and the Geological Time Scale - Circular Reasoning or Reliable Tools By Andrew MacRae MacRae received his PhD in Geology from the University of Calgary in 1996. This is a well illustrated article that brings together stratigraphy, relative time scales, and the absolute chronometry provided by radiometric dating. It is a common assertion from young-Earthers that dating techniques are circular; that fossils are dated according to their strata and that the strata are dated according to their fossils. The assertion is flatly false. * Age of the Earth by Robert Williams This is a general response to several young-Earth arguments. The majority of material is on radiometric dating, although some other faulty young-Earth age arguments are addressed as well. Data, results, and faulty methodologies are all addressed. Of particular interest is some tabulated data from Dalrymple's /Age of the Earth/ (see below). These data well illustrate the internal consistencies of radiometric dating methods. A well written article worth reading. * Fresh Lava Dated As 22 Million Years Old By Computer Scientist Don Lindsay A common creationist argument is that radiometric dating must be unreliable, because fresh Hawaiian lava was dated to be millions of years old. But this is an /urban legend/, as Lindsay points out. * Were Adam & Eve Toast? By Geophysicist Joe Meert A common creationist argument is that radiometric dating must be unreliable, because decay rates are variable, and were higher in the past. In the reliability section below, there is a discussion of how rates might be made to vary. But here Joe Meert explains the consequences we would expect today, if in fact decay rates were variable in the past. The consequent very high rate of energy release brings to mind the title question, /Were Adam & Eve Toast?/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Reliability of Radiometric Dating* ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * Are radioactive dating methods really as accurate as they appear to be? Response by Dr. John Christie , Department of Chemistry , La Trobe University , Bundoora, Victoria, Australia. A Q&A submitted to the Mad Scientists Network . An Australian high school student asks the question, which was routed to Dr. Christie for response. A good, brief explanation of how reliable radiometric dating really is. * Consistent Radiometric Dates By Joe Meert , Assistant Professor of geology, Department of Geological Sciences , at University of Florida, Gainesville . Dr. Meert shows where different radiometric methods return concordant dates for a given sample or region. If radiometric dating really does not work, one would not expect different methods to return concordant ages. One more example of consistency, that leads to confidence that radiometric dating is valid both in principle & in practice. * The Formation of the Hawaiian Islands Hosted by The Hawaii Center for Volcanology . The page inculdes a chart of radiometric ages of the volcanoes in the Hawaiian chain. But the plot of age versus distance from Kilauea is significant. It shows a clear linear slope, a strong, direct correlation between the tectonic motion of the Pacific Plate over the Hawaiian hotspot , and the age of the Hawaiian Island chain. Once more, a clear correlation between radiometric dates, and independent date indicators. * Are Radioactive Dates Consistent with the Deeper-is-Older Rule? * Are Radioactive Dating Methods Consistent with Each Other? By Computer Scientist Don Lindsay Two more items that address the question of reliability. In these two short items, Lindsay shows that absolute radiometric dates are consistent with relative geological dates, and that the various radiometric methods are consistent with each other. * Breakthrough Made in Dating of the Geological Record By F.J. Hilgen et al. From EOS 78(28): 285,288-289 (July 15, 1997), a weekly newspaper of geophysics from the American Geophysical Union . The "breakthrough" documented in this report is an intercomparison between sedimentary, radiometric and astrochronological dates (also known as Milankovitch cycles ). This evidence of strong agreement between disparate dating methods is another example of the consistency between radiometric dating and nature, and another demonstration of reliability. Hilgen is a professor in the faculty of Earth Sciences at Utrecht University , Netherlands. * Comparing Luminescence Dating and Radiometric Dating By Tim Thompson I wrote this originally as a discussion board post, and decided to add it to this collection. The Hilgen et al. paper above shows a convincing comparison between radiometric dating and astronomical dating. Here, I reference a paper that is a good example of concordance between radiometric dating and /luminescence dating/, a technique that takes advantage of electrons trapped in crystal lattice defects. The continued concordance between radiometric and other dating schemes just makes things bleaker and bleaker for the concept of a "young" Earth. * How to Change Nuclear Decay Rates By Bill Johnson, updated by Scott Chase. It is a common creationist ploy to argue that radioactive decay rates either are, or can be, variable; since radiometric dating always assumes a constant decay rate, it is therefore unreliable. But in this item from the usenet physics FAQ , we see how and why decay rates can and do vary. We also see that the variable decay rate argument is a dead argument. Not only does the variability not apply at all to most radiometric isotopes, but even in those cases where it does apply, the affect is at the less than one percent level, under conditions that are unrealistically extreme for any practical application to radiometric dating. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Introductory General Articles on Radiometric Dating* ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * Radiometric Dating - A Christian Perspective By Dr. Roger C. Wiens from 1990-1997 Wiens was a staff scientist in the Division of Geological and Planetary Sciences , at the California Institute of Technology (Caltech). Today he is a member of the Space Physics Team at the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico. His article is hosted by the American Scientific Affiliation (ASA). The ASA describes itself as a "/fellowship of men and women of science and disciplines that can relate to science who share a common fidelity to the Word of God and a commitment to integrity in the practice of science/". Young-Earth creationists would have you believe that there is only one "Christian" position on the age of the Earth, and that the young-Earth position is it. But Wiens and the ASA exemplify the fact that, even amongst Christians, the young-Earth is a minority position. See also the ASA "Creation-Evolution Collection ". * Radioactive Dating and the Age of the Solar System By Mike Skrutskie This is a very brief outline. It is a "handout" for the Astronomy 100 course taught by Skrutskie at the University of Massachusetts, Amherst . * An Essay on radiometric Dating By Jonathan Woolf An essay on the basic principles. Woolf describes himself as an /enthusiastic amateur/. But if you are looking for /radiometric dating for dummies/, or some such explanation, aimed at the general reader, this may be the one that does it for you. * Radiometric Dating By Dr. Pamela J.W. Gore Hosted by Georgia Geoscience Online and Georgia Perimeter College ; Dr. Gore is on the faculty of Georgia Perimeter College. This is a brief tutorial introduction to the basic principles of radiometric dating, designed for community college students of geology. * Absolute Time By Dr. Ethan L. Grossman A brief outline of the fundamental principles, including radiometric dating. These are course notes for Dr. Grossman's Geology 101 course , Department of Geology & Geophysics , at Texas A&M University . * Geologic Time: Age of the Earth * Geologic Time: The Radiometric Time Scale Hosted by the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) . These pages are part of Geologic Time , a USGS Geologic Information - General Interest Publication . There is a little about how radiometric dating is done, but really not much. The main value here is that the results of radiometric dating are well presented. Find out how radiometric dating is done from one of the other sites, and find out what it all means here. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Advanced General Articles on Radiometric Dating* These items presume some advanced understanding of physics & mathematics ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * Isochron Dating By Chris Stassen The article is well illustrated and well written. There is an introduction to the generic problem of radiometric dating, but this article concentrates on one well established method called the "isochron method". Isochron dating is a robust application of the radiometric principles which has the advantage of being insensitive to the initial concentration of daughter product. This is really an intermediate level article, designed for general readers, but it is not something to read lightly. Chris Stassen describes himself as a "computer hack with the bizarre hobby of studying isotope geology". He is the owner of Stassen.Com . * Isotope Geochemistry Lecture Notes Extensive graduate course lecture notes downloadable in PDF format. Introduction to radioactive decay and nucleosynthesis. Extensive notes on dating systems, radiogenic & stable isotope geochemistry. Includes applications to palaeoclimatology. The entire set of notes for 37 lectures will give you a 273 page book on isotope geochemistry, free. Hosted by the Wm. Keck Foundation Isotope Laboratory , in the Earth & Atmospheric Sciences Department at Cornell University , Ithica, New York. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Radiocarbon Dating* ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * Radiocarbon Web Established jointly by the radiocarbon laboratories at the University of Waikato in New Zealand, and Oxford University in England, the Radiocarbon Web is a storehouse of information on radiocarbon dating. Here you will find a complete description of the basic principles, the applied techniques, and how dates are corrected for the known variations in atmospheric carbon abundances (the use of tree ring calibration is important). * Radiocarbon The homepage for the technical journal /Radiocarbon/. Includes ^14 C Information and Links to various radiocarbon laboratories, and downloadable software. * What about carbon-14 dating? An entry in the Sci.Skeptic FAQ . Authorship is unattributed. * Absolute Chronology for Early Civilizations in Central Europe using ^14 C Dating and Accelerator Mass Spectrometry By Herwig Friesinger et al. /This proposal is an interdisciplinary initiative of archaeologists and nuclear physicists to substantially improve the absolute chronology of archaeologically interesting cultures in Austria and Central Europe by using ^14 C dating with Accelerator Mass Spectrometry (AMS). An improved absolute chronology based on precise ^14 C dating would lead to a better understanding of the interactions between early cultures and would help to deepen our insight into the rich diversity of pre-historic life in Austria and adjacent countries. The ^14 C dating will be performed at the Vienna Environmental Research Accelerator (VERA), a new centre for AMS at the Institut for Radiumforschung und Kernphysik of the University of Vienna , which came into operation in 1996./ The project description is in English and in considerable detail. This is a good example for those who want to see a detailed account of how it is all really done. Includes ^14 C dating general principles & methodology, absolute calibration, mass spectrometry, and archaeological methods such as sample selection and preperation. * Carbon Dating By Computer Scientist Don Lindsay A brief introduction to carbon dating for general readers. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Other Resources* Indirectly related to radiometric dating ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * Webelements - periodic table of the elements /Webelements/, hosted by the University of Sheffield, England, is the most complete online periodic table I know of. Complete physical, chemical, thermodynamic, and even historic information on elements and isotopes. Not as much nuclear specific information as the table of nuclides listed below, but lots of additional stuff. * Table of the Nuclides - [Home Site] Nuclear Data Evaluation Lab at the Korean Atomic Energy Research Institute (KAERI), Korea * Table of the Nuclides - [Mirror] Department of Advanced Technology at Brookhaven National Laboratory , USA * Table of the Nuclides - [Mirror] ISIS , Rutherford Appleton Laboratory , England These all mirror the same functionality, but the Korean interface is actually a tad easier to use. This is where you look up things like decay modes, half life, decay energy, and so forth. It's easier to work your way through an entire decay chain using these tables, but if you want lots of info on one element, the Webelements page is better. * Table of Isotopes Not as detailed as the KAERI tables, but has a more user-friendly interface. Part of the ABC's of Nuclear Science , hosted by the Lawrence-Berkeley National Laboratory . ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Books* You remember - what we used to read before computers I have included here only such books as I know of, or are recommended. Some I am aware of I have left off because they are out of print and I don't know much about them. There are no "young-Earth" books here, because of course there are no young-Earth radiometric dating methods established (no big surprise there). Books included are both advanced and general, but all bear either directly or indirectly on the radiometric dating problem. For each book, the title is linked to an Amazon.Com entry if there is one (so far we are batting 100%). Authors are linked to their own homepages, or the functional equivalent, wherever I could find one. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * The Age of the Earth By G. Brent Dalrymple Dalrymple earned his PhD in Geology from the University of California, Berkeley in 1963. A long time veteran of the U.S. Geological Survey , he is now Dean of the College of Oceanic and Atmospheric Sciences at Oregan State University . He is a well recognized authority in the field of radiometric dating. His book, published by the Stanford University Press in 1991, is the only book I know of which deals directly and in detail with the age of the Earth. It is written for non-technical readers, but it is not lacking in content. 474 Pages long, the book covers all aspects of dating the Earth, talks about the radiometric methods, and talks about the history of attempts to determine the age of the Earth, including Biblical chronologies. This book is a must-read for anyone interested in knowing how we know the age of the Earth. It presents perhaps the strongest case against the idea of a 10,000 year old Earth. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * Principles of Isotope Geology By Gunter Faure Faure was and still is a Professor in the Department of Geological Sciences at Ohio State University ; he earned his PhD at M.I.T. in 1961. This book is not for general audiences, it is a technical book aimed at students of physics and geophysics. The book goes beyond an explication of the basic principles, and delves into the applications of radiometric dating. An excellent & detailed reference on the geology & physics of radiometric dating, but Dickin's book (see below) is now in fair competition for the top spot. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * Radiogenic Isotope Geology By Alan P. Dickin Dickin is a professor in the School of Geography and Geology at Mc Master University in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. The link goes to the 1997 reprint; the original appeared in 1995. Dickin also makes available a draft of the upcoming 2nd edition . Like Faure's book, this is a physicists text, not intended for general audiences. Detailed explications of dating methods, as well as isotope geochemistry. Includes fission track dating, which was not covered in my 1977 edition of Faure. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * Radioactive and Stable Isotope Geology By Hans-Gunter Attendorn & R.N.C Bowen Amazon.com says it was published by Chapman & Hall, but they were bought out by Kluwer . This is the 1997 second edition of the 1988 "/Isotopes in the Earth Sciences/". Besides radiometric dating methods and isotope geochemistry, this book also deals with isotopic analysis and climate. Both authors are formerly from the Geologisch-Paläontologisches Institut , affiliated with Westfälische Wilhelms-Universität , Münster, Germany. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * Geochronology and Thermochronology by the 40Ar/39Ar Method By Ian MacDougall & T. Mark Harrison Oxford Monographs on Geology and Geophysics #9, 1988; Oxford University Press . This book comes recommended by Geophysicist Joe Meert as the "Bible of Ar/Ar dating". Publication of a new second edition, again by the Oxford University Press , is scheduled for June 1999. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * Geochronology, Time Scales and Global Stratigraphic Correlation By William A. Berggren, editor December, 1995; Special Publication #54 of the Society for Sedimentary Geology . Currently out of print, but may be available through the society. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * Nuclear Methods of Dating By Etienne Roth /et al.,/ editors Graham & Trotman, July 1990 Review - Booknews, Inc. , May 1, 1990 Describes all the methods of dating terrestrial events using direct or indirect measurements of natural nuclear disintegrations. The work doesn't treat the matter of isotopic geochemistry in general, but rather concentrates on a more complete and practical guide to dating methods. The first chapter collates general data and principles common to all methods. The following chapters present the possibilities and limitations of the different dating methods, along with the relevant analytical techniques and the preferred range of application. Includes two glossaries, isotope tables, a scale of geological times, and a chapter on radioactivity. /Annotation copyright Book News, Inc. Portland, Or./ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Tim Thompson's Home Page Tim Thompson's Collected Writings 1