mirrored file at http://SaturnianCosmology.Org/ For complete access to all the files of this collection see http://SaturnianCosmology.org/search.php ========================================================== From: btd at iastate.edu (Benjamin T. Dehner) Newsgroups: talk.origins Subject: Update: The Ginenthal Factor (for CLE) Date: 20 Jul 94 15:53:16 GMT Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa Lines: 79 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: pv7440.vincent.iastate.edu [posted for CLE by btd] Update: The Ginenthal Factor When I replied to Talbott's 3 Jul posting on 14 Jul, I had not read Ginenthal's "Scientific Dating Methods in Ruins:, _Velikovskian_ II:I, 1994, 50-79, cited by Talbott to discredit my invocation of absolute dating of ice cores and tree rings. I have now read the article and can report, as I fully expected based on Ginenthal's track record of incompetent reporting, it gives no support to Talbott's hope that ice core and tree ring dating is invalid. Talbott refers to vegetation from the Atlantic period now under much older ice. Ginenthal mentions tree trunks covered by ice older than the trees, as though this is some serious anomaly. But Ginental's quote from a 1964 _New Scientist_ article makes it clear that the trees were overrrun by spreading ice in the late 15th century (p. 57). No big whoop. With tree rings, I find no discussion by Ginenthal corresponding to Talbott's remark about "the inability of the experts to produce matching lineages EVEN IN THE SAME REGIONS." Contrary to the impression created by Talbott, Ginenthal does not even refer to my prior discussion of the tree ring dating. Ginenthal makes much of all the potential problems attending tree ring dating, but he fails to address the FACT that both bristlecone pines from the American Southwest and Irish bog oaks show frost ring damage at 1626 B.C., generally attributed to the Minoan eruption of Thera. He also ignores tha FACT that in 1973, "Lamarche & Harlan _independantly_ confirmed Ferguson's bristlecone pine sequence exactly ... for the most recent 5400 years, back to 3435 B.C." (Ellenberber, "Tree Rings." KRONOS X:1, 1984, 94-97). Not bad for a procedure that is as corrupt as Talbott and Ginenthal seem to think(?). Regarding the validity of the bristlecone pine chronology, Ginenthal confuses two separate uses of tree rings: annual ring counts and estimation of paleotemperatures based on oxygen isotope ratios in the wood. Ginenthal's quote from Gribbin in the 1982 does not impeach the validity of the bristlecone pine chronology. Gribbin's point was that because we lack adequate records of recent temperatures, correlation of oxygen isotope ratios to estimate paleotemperatures is not practical (p. 63). Incredibly, Ginenthal writes as though temperature data were needed to count annual rings! Ginenthal claims the Irish Oak record is not fixed, but floating, based on a 1982 reference to M.G.L, Baillie (p.64). Unfortunately for Ginenthal, the Irish Oak record became fixed by 1984 and continuous back to 5289 B.C. (M. Baillie & J. Pilchar, _New Scientist_, 17 Mar 1988, 48-51; see also, M.G.L. Baillie, "Hecla 3: how big was it?" _Endeavour_, 13:2, 1989, 78-81 and idem., "Do Irish Bog Oaks Date the Shang Dynasty?" _Current Archaeology_ 117, 1989, 310-313.) Talbott's notion that "the entire ice core dating systems have been as screwed up by ideology and uniformitarian pressuppositions as have the systems of retrospective analysis in other fields" is resoundingly refuted by the nature of the ice core record itself in which multiple seasonal signals that do not all peak at the same time stay in phase over the entire depth. In this instance the uniformitarian working hypothesis is the only sensible working hypothesis suggested by the data. GOOD GREIF. Regarding ice cores and tree ring dating, it seems not Ellenberger, but Talbott and Ginenthal, presents a record of "pure disinformation," "proclamations," "confusion," and "unwillingess to confront the argument." Ginenthal's conclusions about ice core and treee ring dating can be given no credence and are as inchoate now as they were in August 1992 at Haliburton, Ontario. Talbott's reliance on Ginenthal exhibits a lack of capacity beyond mere incompetence. He is not only "clueless in the mythosphere," but seemingly "clueless beyond redemption." Leroy Ellenberer, 20 July 1994 FAX: 314-773-9273 St Louis, MO --------- Ben -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Benjamin T. Dehner Dept. of Physics and Astronomy PGP public key btd at iastate.edu Iowa State University available on request Ames, IA 50011