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Recovered: Remembering Velikovsky <./viewtopic.php?f=8&t=130&start=15>
Has science taken a wrong turn? If so, what corrections are needed?
Chronicles of scientific misbehavior. The role of heretic-pioneers and
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Re: Recovered: Remembering Velikovsky <#p962>
New post <./viewtopic.php?p=962#p962>by *arc-us
<./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=54>* » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:58 am
Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 11:09 am Post subject: Re: Dr. V Reply with quote
OP "Krackonis"
Steve Smith wrote:This forum, Thunderbolts.com, Holoscience.com, The
Society for Interdisciplinary Studies and many other websites and
groups would not exist if not for Dr. Velikovsky.
I seem to have gone the wrong way about it! I learned the EU and
Catastrophism in general first, but possibly now find reading Velikovsky
all the more rewarding for this.
I also enjoy listening to his lectures at varchive.org. They are
probably also available on YouTube et al?
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our
mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's
subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. — Maitri Upanishad
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Re: Recovered: Remembering Velikovsky <#p963>
New post <./viewtopic.php?p=963#p963>by *arc-us
<./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=54>* » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:59 am
Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 10:11 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "arc-us"
"VELIKOVSKY
BONDS OF THE PAST
A Movie by Henry Zemel
This documentary was first telecast on February 22, 1972 by the Canadian
Broadcasting Corporation. This online version in Windows Media Player
format is divided into 12 parts, which can be watched by clicking on the
still frames. It is also viewable in RealPlayer format.
Reproduced with the kind permission of the author"
http://www.varchive.org/bonds/bonds.htm
Very poor quality but better than nothing. They should re-do it since
the online technology has improved immensely since the time it was
likely first put up.
Arc-us
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our
mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's
subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. — Maitri Upanishad
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Re: Recovered: Remembering Velikovsky <#p965>
New post <./viewtopic.php?p=965#p965>by *arc-us
<./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=54>* » Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:02 am
Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 3:47 pm Post subject: Re: Velikovsky Bonds Of
The Past Reply with quote
OP "davesmith_au"
A Movie by Henry Zemel
Thank you so much @rc-us for posting that link.
It is one thing to read somewhere of someone, it is a whole-nother thing
to actually see them talking on their subject. Brilliant. NOW I have not
only a picture in my head of the great man to whom the current movers
and shakers within the EU think tank reverently and rightfully refer but
also a much better understanding (I hope) of how this whole thing has
grown to what it is today.
Many on this forum may have guessed by now that I am not your average
scholar, but a self-motivated, self-taught (mostly), self-supporting,
(oh hang on, I'm broke...) individual who likes to think about stuff,
(this is far from my only interest in life, however it's right up
there...) and talk about stuff with others who think about the same stuff.
Since investigating the EU theo... model over the last month or two I
have developed quite a passion for it, but not currently being in a
position to 'run out and buy this book' etc. have been somewhat
frustrated at not getting enough input.
This forum is addressing that lack in large lumps!! Hip-hip hooray for
those who set it up and hip-hip hooray for those who have come here to
teach, to learn, to experience the mind expansion which is allowed and
encouraged by this forum.
Thanks again @rc-us for a great link, I would encourage all other
newbies to go there, watch it, download it for future reference and
covet it. You never know one day it could be a grand piece of history
(and in some ways, it already is).
Cheers again,
Dave S.
_________________
PlasmaResources.com
"If you are not prepared to think outside the square, you will always be
confined within it..." Dave Smith.
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our
mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's
subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. — Maitri Upanishad
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Re: Recovered: Remembering Velikovsky <#p966>
New post <./viewtopic.php?p=966#p966>by *arc-us
<./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=54>* » Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:03 am
Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:08 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "arc-us"
Most welcome, Dave. :)
Very Best,
Arc-us
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our
mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's
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Re: Recovered: Remembering Velikovsky <#p967>
New post <./viewtopic.php?p=967#p967>by *arc-us
<./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=54>* » Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:04 am
Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:04 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "Sunsettommy"
David Talbott wrote:That is a very timely reminder Steve. On every
occasion of a public talk, Wal Thornhill and I will explicitly honor
Velikovsky's inspiration, and for the reasons you state.
Nevertheless, whenever I mention Velikovsky's name in the presence
of academics or scientists I do not know, I always find myself
looking over my shoulder, based on the kinds of responses I've
gotten from people sympathetic to the Electric Universe but strongly
affected by the way official science tells the Velikovsky story. But
if the issue comes up as a "negative," nothing will be of greater
value to the one expressing the concern than the discovery of
Velikovsky's true contribution. To see that contribution clearly is
to instantly realize the scale of the crisis in the theoretical
sciences today.
Well at one time hearing of Velikovsky's name.I would mentally snicker.
I have a book debunking Velikovsky.It contains Sagan and others with
Issac Assimov writing the footnote.I thought then that anyone being a
supporter/follower was loony.
I have since changed when I was fed up with the conventional cosmology
and their ever increasing ad hoc pronouncements over something that
appears to challence their religious belief.
Then having run across Dr. Arp,Eric Lerner,and Donald E Scott books.I
regained my interest in the cosmos.
FINALLY SOMETHING ORIGIONAL AND EMPERICALLY BASED!
It was JAMES HOGAN (the science fiction writer) who help me see Immanual
in a different way.He has a website with a number of postings about
Velikovsky.
I am having a similar problem in the climate change field as well.
I consider their claims that CO2 is main the driver of the current
warming and that man is the main culprit for the CO2 atmospheric
greenhouse gas increases.To be without merit.
I think just as in cosmology.They chose a narrow path to their
enlightenment and they react poorly when a competing explanation is
proposed.
I dislike it and wish scientific research would be open to ALL
possibilities and weigh the results openmindedly.
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our
mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's
subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. — Maitri Upanishad
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Re: Recovered: Remembering Velikovsky <#p968>
New post <./viewtopic.php?p=968#p968>by *arc-us
<./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=54>* » Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:05 am
Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:00 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "JMT"
I first came across 'Worlds in Collision' in 1977 browsing around
various bookstalls on London's Kings Cross Station while awaiting a
train to Edinburgh.
I thought that reading a good drop of science fiction would tend to
shorten the very long train journey (in those days).
Skipping the Introduction and Prologue, I began reading from Chapter 1.
Several hours later, arriving at York (for a very welcome cup of tea),
and having already read several chapters, it suddenly dawned upon me
that this Velikovsky guy is serious (mainly due to all those footnotes
etc) and that this is not intended to be science fiction at all!
I then returned to the very beginning of the book and began reading more
slowly in order to better understand the content and since those days,
I've been hooked on the subject.
Curiously, I believe Velikovsky did once ponder the notion that WIC
might have been better presented as a work of fiction instead of a
full-blown thesis.
Had this been the case, perhaps there would have been little or no
initial uproar and furore following publication in 1950 and perchance
his later predictions (while still being based on a SciFi novel) would
have been more acceptable to the scientific establishment.
Indeed, I think Velikovsky would probably be a household name these days
being honoured and respected throughout the scientific world as an
author and scientist of astonishing insight and forethought.
'Poco a poco' (little by little), is generally what most mainstream
scientists respect and will accord with (ie first feed them milk and as
time passes, add a little meat.)
Instead, Velikovsky fed them a huge banquet which their milky teeth were
completely unprepared for, hence the initial furious outcries etc and
the 'Derision' (aka Phil Plait etc), that is still prevalent today.
Cheers
John
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our
mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's
subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. — Maitri Upanishad
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Re: Recovered: Remembering Velikovsky <#p969>
New post <./viewtopic.php?p=969#p969>by *arc-us
<./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=54>* » Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:06 am
Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:03 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "science42"
About a couple of years ago, I came across the website
http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com which eventually led me to
Thunderbolts and Dr. Velikovsky. I have now read Worlds in Collision,
Ages in Chaos, Earth in Upheaval and am eager for more.
But here is what startled me into taking an interest in all this "new"
information: as I read about the theory that the Sun has an iron surface
and that the light it emits could easily turn on and off, based on the
electric pressure it receives, the words of Revelation 7:12 came
flooding into my mind: "...the Sun became black as sackcloth of hair..."
and I envisioned for the first time the absolute possibility of such an
event- rather difficult with the standard theory of solar power!
Then I began to read about Plasma Cosmology- and it made sense to me,
being trained as an Electronic Technologist.
Finally, my interest piqued, I sought out copies of that writer whose
name had a familiar ring from my youth...Velikovsky. I had never studied
him before. Again, over and over, all the catastrophies he spoke of
triggered references in my mind to what is prophesied in the book of
Revelations of things to come: "great earthquake...sun became
black...moon became as blood...stars of heaven fell...heaven departed as
a scroll when it is rolled up...[anyone have an idea what
inter-planetary thunderbolts would do to the atmosphere?]...every
mountain and island moved out of their places...silence in
Heaven...voices, thunderings, lightnings and an earthquake...hail and
fire mingled with blood...1/3rd of the trees burnt up...all green grass
burnt..great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea...1/3rd of
the sea became blood...1/3rd of sea creatures died...1/3rd of ships
destroyed...fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp..."
Chapter 8:12: "...and the third part of the sun was smitten [somewhere I
saw an image of a star, found recently, that has a 'sunspot' on 1/3rd of
its surface], the third part of the moon, and the third part of the
stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not
for a third part of it and the night, likewise."
Again in Chapter 16: "...voices and thunders and lightnings...a great
earthquake, such as was not since men were on the earth...every island
fled away...mountains were not found...great hail out of heaven, each
stone weighing about a talent [roughly 60lbs]."
In Psalms 97:5, the psalmist says the "...mountains melted like wax...".
Sound like quotes from Velikovsky's passages, don't they?
science42
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our
mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's
subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. — Maitri Upanishad
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Re: Recovered: Remembering Velikovsky <#p970>
New post <./viewtopic.php?p=970#p970>by *arc-us
<./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=54>* » Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:06 am
- 30 -
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our
mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's
subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. — Maitri Upanishad
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Re: Recovered: Remembering Velikovsky <#p2131>
New post <./viewtopic.php?p=2131#p2131>by *webolife
<./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=94>* » Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:19 pm
Nice to read such a friendly discussion of Immanuel Velikovsky. I was
introduced to "Worlds in Collision" in the mid-70's shortly before I
began studying the unification of gravity and light, my acquaintance
with EU being only the last half-decade old. At that time [70's] new
theories in earth science and new space expeditions were all the rage,
and popular [ie "scientific consensus"... what a self-serving euphemism
that is!] opinion of Velikovsky was largely negative, and I began
looking into scientific creationism. The same trouble I had with
creationism, as with Velikovsky, was not that I thought their ideas were
all wrong, but that I felt like I was being asked to choose either/or,
to the exclusion of valid scientific enterprise in what we here like to
term "conventional wisdom". Rather than finding that term oxymoronic, as
some at this site seem to express, I have taken on what seemed for a
while to be a very lonely task of taking the good with the bad, and
sorting out truth from fiction in whatever the camps of science were.
What I really appreciate about this forum is that regardless of how we
all often disagree with each other, at least we ain't lonely! I confess
to trying to be too cute from time to time with my posts, but I'm very
grateful for the freedom we have here to speak openly in search of the
truth. (Even the concept of "truth" has taken a hit from the
conventionally "wise".)
After all that rambling, I just wanted to mention that I teach a 20 hour
adult course in catastrophic foundations for science, and that I have
placed a significant accent on the whole premise of worlds in collision,
which has shifted recently ;) to EU ideas. Velikovsky influenced me
heavily even when I "thought" I was disavowing many of his claims.
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse
among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness
of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.
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Re: Recovered: Remembering Velikovsky <#p8206>
New post <./viewtopic.php?p=8206#p8206>by *Antone
<./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=390>* » Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:12 pm
arc-us wrote: Velikovsky's daughter, who lives in Israel, sent me an
excellent book a few years ago, _Steven J Gould and Immanuel
Velikovsky_, which is 20 years newer than _Reconsidered_, but is
more focused not on ways Velikovsky can be shown to be right, but
ways his detractors were wrong.
I also have always wanted such a list. But first we have to define what
the list is to be. For instance, there are many things that Velikovsky
didn't actually predict, but that could none-the-less be assumed by the
natrue of his theory. For instance, I don't think Velikovsky every said
explicitly that the earth should have a rift running around its
perimeter several times, but that is something that we could anticipate
based on the idea of the earth being stopped in its rotation.
Does this qualify as a Velikovsky prediction?
I belive it should.
Here is a very partial list:
* submarine canyon that runs almost twice around the globe.
* Layer of Ash of extraterrestrial origin underlying all oceans.
* Thinner layer of ash covering moon than expected--because of
recent formation of moon.
* Various types of evidence that the poles have suddenly and
repeatedly reversed.
* Gases observed escaping from moon--indicating heat and thus recent
formation.
* Wobble detected in orbit of various planets and moon--seeming to
indicating it was recently created.
* High surface heat on Venus.
* Thick, hydrocarbon atmosphere of Venus.
* Envelop shape of Venus, 15 miles thick, 45 miles above surface.
* retrograde rotation of Venus--indicating not one of original
undisturbed planets.
* Commet like tail of venus still stretches all the way to the earth.
* Radio signals from Jupiter.
* Magnetosphere surrounding earth.
* Existence of Solar Plasma.
* Net charge of sun.
* Magnetic field permeating interplanetary space.
That should get you started.
Also, I understand that Velikovsky wrote a paper titled " Some
Additional Examples of Correct Prognosis"
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/esp_ciencia_velikovsky13.htm
Another article can be found here:
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/esp_ciencia_velikovsky12.htm
I've only glanced over it, but it contains a few new things at least.
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Re: Recovered: Remembering Velikovsky <#p8258>
New post <./viewtopic.php?p=8258#p8258>by *nick c
<./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=62>* » Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:03 pm
Greetings Antone:
There was a list of "advanced claims" (which Velikovsky preferred over
"prediction") in the journal Pensee.
You could also add the discovery of remnant magnetism in lunar rocks as
this was a big time bulls eye for Velikovsky. He wrote an article in the
NY Times before the moon landing, urging NASA to conduct this test, they
did not have it on their agenda because they already "knew" that it
could not exist. Several missions later when they finally did test for
remnant magnetism, all were surprised at the results. But few gave
Velikovsky any credit.
Also, he said that Saturn's rings would be found to be composed of water
ice.
A few notes concerning your list.
Gases observed escaping from moon--indicating heat and thus recent
formation.
Wobble detected in orbit of various planets and moon--seeming to
indicating it was recently created.
Velikovsky postulated a recent birth for Venus, within human memory, not
the Moon or any other planets.
His theories do not speak for any other "newcomers" to the planetary
family, although pre existing planets such as Mars, Moon, etc would have
undergone enormous changes (surface features, internal heating, orbital
changes, etc) due to the reordering of the solar system. He also thought
that the Moon was previously a satellite of Jupiter, captured by the Earth.
A few yet to be confirmed advanced claims of Velikovsky:
-the orbital perihelion precession of Mercury is caused by electrical
interaction with the Sun's magnetic field. And should not be seen as
confirmation of Einstein's General Relativity.
-Jupiter and Saturn are 'dark stars.'
-planets are born from gas giants/brown dwarfs
-there are microorganisms on Mars, pathogenic to man
-Saturn recently went nova and therefore should emit x-rays and/or
cosmic rays
-some Martian craters resulted from interplanetary electric discharges
- Mars must have localized areas of radioactivity as a result of discharges
-rayed craters on the Moon are the result of interplanetary discharges
-many craters on the Moon are the result of bubbling, collapsed bubbles
The list could go on and on. Keep in mind that Velikovsky was wrong
about many things, however, when taken into context of the intellectual
thought of his time, he truly was an intelectual giant, at times,
capable of an unprecedented intuitive insight.
Nick C
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Re: Recovered: Remembering Velikovsky <#p8280>
New post <./viewtopic.php?p=8280#p8280>by *Antone
<./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=390>* » Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:38 pm
nick c wrote:Velikovsky postulated a recent birth for Venus, within
human memory, not the Moon or any other planets.
His theories do not speak for any other "newcomers" to the planetary
family, although pre existing planets such as Mars, Moon, etc would
have undergone enormous changes (surface features, internal heating,
orbital changes, etc) due to the reordering of the solar system. He
also thought that the Moon was previously a satellite of Jupiter,
captured by the Earth.
You make some good points, especially your comments that Velikovsky
wasn't always right.
As for the moon, you were correct to point out my poor choice of words.
[Formation] was not what I meant to imply. But as you indicated, the
Moon is close enough that it would have suffered some serious heating,
which would have turned the surface to molten lava--and like that. This
heating is the "formation" I intended. It wasn't the origination of the
moon, but a sword might be said to be formed in the forge, even though
the metal that is used to make the sword isn't created at that time. So
I'm not sure how right or wrong my word usage was--but I can see how it
would give the wrong impression.
As for the wobbles... these would have been caused when the planets
interacted. The wobbles supposedly disappear over time, so the extent of
the wobble would seem to indicate some recent disturbance. Although, as
the Polar Configuration proves, this is an observation that could easily
have an alternative explanation. Yet it is still an observation that
would be predictable, based on his theory.
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Re: Recovered: Remembering Velikovsky <#p8424>
New post <./viewtopic.php?p=8424#p8424>by *nick c
<./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=62>* » Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:58 am
[I don't think that this has been mentioned (?) previously in this thread]
To be added to the list of Velikovsky's "advanced claims:"
-The magnetosphere (EU=plasmasphere) of the Sun extends at least to the
orbit of Pluto
From [url2=http://www.varchive.org/ce/cosmos.htm]Cosmos Without
Gravitation[/url2] (1946):
The sun is a rotating charged body, and it creates a magnetic field.
We assume the solar charge to be large enough to produce a magnetic
field with lines of force reaching the orbit of Pluto.
Nick C
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Re: Recovered: Remembering Velikovsky <#p8731>
New post <./viewtopic.php?p=8731#p8731>by *RobertFritzius* » Mon Aug 04,
2008 8:25 pm
In October 2007 I presented a poster at the American Astronomical
Society's Division for Planetary Sciences meeting in Orlando, FL. The
poster covered some of Velikovsky's fulfilled predictions and some more
recent research with respect to two of them. (The title was "Is Venus A
New Planet?")
On the poster I showed two pictures of Chinese heavenly dragons. One of
them was obviously a dragon. The other, which dates from 200 BC to 200
AD, looks a like a black tiger with two orange spiraling stripes from
tail to head. I interpret the stripes as Birkeland currents. (What I
think is a phoenix bird is placed close to the "dragon.")
During my "dog and pony show" period one gentleman studied that second
picture for about a minute, and pronounced, "That's not a dragon!" He
studied it for another 10 seconds or so, then stated, "Yes it is!" That
was the sum total of our spoken communication.
An html version of the poster can be seen at
http://shadetreephysics.com/vel/NewVenus.htm
*RobertFritzius*
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Re: Recovered: Remembering Velikovsky <#p8732>
New post <./viewtopic.php?p=8732#p8732>by *nick c
<./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=62>* » Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:06 pm
Greetings RobertFritzius:
My compliments to you for your Velikovsky presentation before an
astronomical society. It takes courage to go behind enemy lines, so to
speak! I am surprised that they allowed you to make your presentation.
Anyway, if I might make a point....I have supported the theory of Venus
as a young planet, many times on this forum. However, we cannot use
crater counts as evidence for the planets' youth. The reason being that
crater counts have no bearing whatsoever, as to the age of Venus, or any
planet that is having its' craters counted. They are based on an
assumption of the random collisions of meteorites and asteroids/comets
over time. Under catastrophic conditions a planets' face could be
totally scarred with craters in a matter of hours or days, at a later
time, astronomers would count the craters and while operating under
uniformitarian assumptions come up with an estimate of millions of
years. So in effect, a catastrophist is using a uniformitarian measuring
stick when using this method. In the interest of consistency, the method
has no value in a catastrophist analysis. The fact that Venus is not
heavily cratered may be because of the dense atmosphere, also during the
catastrophic period Venus' surface may not have been totally solidified,
these are some guesses on my part. That being said, there is plenty of
scarring that can be attributed to electrical discharges:
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2005/ ... sriver.htm
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2007/ ... ngmane.htm
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2005/ ... stitan.htm
Velikovsky's prediction of hydrocarbons on Venus appears to have been
wrong, at least to the point that there is some process that I am not
aware of, that could convert hydrocarbons to carbon dioxide.
Does anyone know how this could happen?
As far as 'vermin' being associated with Venus and the Venus
catastrophes I am satisfied to accept that the close passage could have
heated up the soil on Earth causing insects to propagate at a increased
rate resulting in such things as a "plague" of locusts or the like. I
find it hard to accept the transfer of life, so advanced as to be called
'vermin', from one planet to another. Though I remain open minded to the
possibilities. As a side note to this topic, and to be looked at in
conjunction to the reports cited by Velikovsky to the connection between
insect plagues/vermin and Venus. There is an interesting myth, for
whatever it is worth, about Venus and vermin (or rather insects) from
South America. From The Raw and the Cooked- Introduction to a Science of
Mythology, volume 1 by Claude Levi-Strauss, p250, 1st Harper-Collophon
edition:
M138. Sherente. "The Planet Venus"
Venus (a masculine personage) was living in human shape among men.
His body was covered with malodorous ulcers, and behind him was
buzzing a swarm of bees. All the people turned up their noses when
he passed, and refused him when he asked permission to rest in their
houses...
The "buzzing swarm of bees" trailing behind Venus is also reminiscent of
the well documented cometary tail associated to that planet in myths
from around the world.
Nick C
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nick c <./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=62>
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