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Recovered: Remembering Velikovsky <./viewtopic.php?f=8&t=130&start=0>
Has science taken a wrong turn? If so, what corrections are needed?
Chronicles of scientific misbehavior. The role of heretic-pioneers and
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Recovered: Remembering Velikovsky <#p945>
New post <./viewtopic.php?p=945#p945>by *arc-us
<./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=54>* » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:44 am
Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 2:37 am Post subject: Remembering Velikovsky
Reply with quote
OP "TampaDAve"
Does anyone know of a list of things Velikovsky was right about, but
nonetheless was ridiculed and vilified by Establishment Science? I
remember reading of or hearing a few. Radio Noise from Jupiter he was
aware of predicting to howls of amusement, and then when he pointed out
that he had been right, the response was "even the worst Charlatan gets
a few guesses right." I remember a lot of debate over the surface
temperature on Venus, which he predicted would be hot, and scientists
invented some crazy scheme whereby enough light penetrates the optically
dense atmosphere to create a greenhouse effect... pretty lame
considering how dark it is at the surface, but how hot! Anyway, as time
goes by, I figure the list would be pretty long by now. I am very
interested in how history and archeology have dealt with his discovery
of falsification of almost 1000 yrs of Egyptian history by just
repeating large segments with the names changed. This would require a
lot of work to get the foundations back level and solid, and I doubt
anyone has been willing to do the work, since ignoring Velikovsky has
been the norm.
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our
mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's
subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. — Maitri Upanishad
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Re: Recovered: Remembering Velikovsky <#p946>
New post <./viewtopic.php?p=946#p946>by *arc-us
<./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=54>* » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:45 am
Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 1:33 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "caplanmh"
I recommend that you read a copy of "Velikovsky Reconsidered" a paperback
In this many of your questions will be answered.
I would guess you can get a copy from Amazon. You could definitely get a
copy from the "Society for Interdisciplinary Studies" (SIS). you may
even want to join. I think there is a link on the thunderbolts site.
_________________
Michael H.
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Re: Recovered: Remembering Velikovsky <#p947>
New post <./viewtopic.php?p=947#p947>by *arc-us
<./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=54>* » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:46 am
Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 2:22 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "Guest"
Yes, I read _Velikovsky Reconsidered_ about 30 years ago. I thought
there might have been scientific discoveries in the past 30 years.
Velikovsky's daughter, who lives in Israel, sent me an excellent book a
few years ago, _Steven J Gould and Immanuel Velikovsky_, which is 20
years newer than _Reconsidered_, but is more focused not on ways
Velikovsky can be shown to be right, but ways his detractors were wrong.
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our
mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's
subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. — Maitri Upanishad
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Re: Recovered: Remembering Velikovsky <#p948>
New post <./viewtopic.php?p=948#p948>by *arc-us
<./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=54>* » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:47 am
Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 5:46 pm Post subject: Carl Sagan and Immanuel
Velikovsky by Charles Ginenthal Reply with quote
OP "pln2bz"
I also recommend this book. It's very dense and dry, but it was
published in 1990. It is packed with a technical analysis of the debate
between those two, and an overall look at the context for the debate --
basically, was it fair?
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our
mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's
subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. — Maitri Upanishad
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Re: Recovered: Remembering Velikovsky <#p950>
New post <./viewtopic.php?p=950#p950>by *arc-us
<./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=54>* » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:48 am
Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 9:52 pm Post subject: Re: Remembering
Velikovsky Reply with quote
OP "Guest"
TampaDAve wrote:Does anyone know of a list of things Velikovsky was
right about, but nonetheless was ridiculed and vilified by
Establishment Science?
Just about every book that focuses on Velikovsky (in a positive light)
will note at least a few such things--but every book I've seen lists at
most about a half dozen or so. And these are rarely in a true list format.
I've often wished I could find the same thing... but I know of no
comprehensive list. I suspect that if one were created it would be
rather long, since many of the books I've seen lists in contain
different things.
Several books (like: "Carl Sagan and Immanuel Velikovsky" by Ginenthal)
note several of these sorts of things--unfortunately, they are scattered
throughout the book.
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our
mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's
subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. — Maitri Upanishad
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Re: Recovered: Remembering Velikovsky <#p951>
New post <./viewtopic.php?p=951#p951>by *arc-us
<./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=54>* » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:50 am
Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: Remembering
Velikovsky Reply with quote
OP "Guest"
TampaDAve wrote:Does anyone know of a list of things Velikovsky was
right about, but nonetheless was ridiculed and vilified by
Establishment Science?
Among Velikovsky's oft-cited predictions were extremely high
temperatures of Venus, radio noises from Jupiter, and remanent magnetism
and radioactive hot spots on the moon. But it was Velikovsky's more
fundamental claims that provoked the harshest ridicule from established
science. He contended that--
* The planetary system was unstable in early historical times;
* In this unstable phase intense electrical events occurred;
* Venus was born from the gas giant Jupiter;
* Venus appeared with a cometary tail, its movements threatening other
planets, including Earth;
* Mars, too, disturbed the Earth in near collisions;
* In these events cosmic thunderbolts blasted planetary surfaces;
* Ancient records--astronomical traditions, myths, symbols, religious
rites--permit a reconstruction of these events through systematic
cross-cultural comparison.
There are, of course, dozens of predictions inherent in these radical
claims. They are already being tested by space age discovery,
experimental work, and historical investigation. Bottom line: Velikovsky
was wrong on many things, but much closer to the truth than his critics.
In fact, as far I can determine these days, the only good critics of
Velikovsky are those who also honor his pioneering contribution. Most
"scientific" discussion of Velikovsky, due to ignorance of electricity
in space, is misdirected and essentially meaningless.
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our
mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's
subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. — Maitri Upanishad
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Re: Recovered: Remembering Velikovsky <#p953>
New post <./viewtopic.php?p=953#p953>by *arc-us
<./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=54>* » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:51 am
Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 6:50 pm Post subject: Let's move on...? Reply
with quote
OP "mgmirkin"
The "Velikovsky Affair," so-called, is ancient history. As some have
said, he may have been correct on some points and way off on others.
But, things have progressed quite a bit beyond the Velikovsky debate in
the intervening decades, both in terms of the "standard model" and in
terms of "plasma cosmology." As such, the Velikovsky Affair is really
only notable as a footnote in science, for some interesting ideas
submitted and as a study of human nature, and our response to items of
interest, intrigue, and controversy. Something of a study in
"uniformitarian science" vs. "maverick science." Both way of going about
it have good aspect and bad aspects.
Unfortunately, the response to Velikovsky's maverick approach wasn't all
that favorable or equitable. He introduced "interesting ideas" (some of
which may have had validity, some of which may not), but he was also
popularly martyred for them, whether rightly or wrongly. Rather than a
fair trial and discussion of validity, something of a witch-hunt and
exile ensued. Unfortunately, that is the real legacy of Velikovsky, and
also a bit of a stigma attached to him (whether deserved or not). For
that reason, rehashing the past may not be a constructive effort. Let's
move forward from where we're at TODAY, and see if we can end up some
place interesting. =o]
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our
mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's
subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. — Maitri Upanishad
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Re: Recovered: Remembering Velikovsky <#p954>
New post <./viewtopic.php?p=954#p954>by *arc-us
<./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=54>* » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:51 am
Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 9:24 am Post subject: Speaking of "The
Velikovsky Affair" Reply with quote
OP "arc-us"
Not wanting to preach to the choir here, but for any not familiar with
it, here are links to Alfred de Grazia's work, The Velikovsky Affair:
HTML
http://www.grazian-archive.com/quantavo ... ll.htm#v15
PDFs
http://www.grazian-archive.com/quantavo ... m#v_pdf_15
Plain-text
http://www.grazian-archive.com/quantavo ... affair.txt
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our
mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's
subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. — Maitri Upanishad
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Re: Recovered: Remembering Velikovsky <#p955>
New post <./viewtopic.php?p=955#p955>by *arc-us
<./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=54>* » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:52 am
Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 2:37 am Post subject: HIS MAJOR CLAIMS Reply
with quote
OP "lk"
I think his main claims, based on mythological records and scientific
data, were as follows.
1. Venus emerged from Jupiter in an incandescant comet-like state and
some decades or centuries later made a close approach to the earth at
the time of the Exodus, about 1450 BC, which approach caused all of the
ten plagues, and about 50 years later made the final close approach,
causing the earth to stop rotating for a few hours, before returning to
normal rotation.
2. Venus had encounters with Mars, which set Mars off-course, causing it
to make 2 or more close approaches to earth and our moon around 700 BC,
which produced further, but less serious, catastrophes.
3. Mankind was traumatized by the cataclysms and subconsciously
preferred to think the records were greatly exaggerated and fantacy.
4. Egyptian history is largely about 500 years too ancient, whereas
Biblical history is much more accurate.
5. Saturn exploded as a Nova, ejecting water which caused the Great Flood.
.
What Velikovsky's main supporters are claiming now is this.
6. Earth, Mars and Venus all emerged from Saturn at different times, as
did many or most of the moons, that the Saturn system originated outside
of the solar system, and that the cataclysms Velikovsky described
actually occurred centuries to millennia before the Exodus, when the
Saturn system first entered the solar system. This combines #1, 2 & 5.
David Talbott started to develop this idea in the early 70s. Wal
Thornhill started helping elaborate the theory in the early 90s, I think.
7. Electrical forces shape most of the universe and are even responsible
for the force of gravity. Velikovsky first suggested that electrical
forces played a significant role in the near approaches with Mars,
especially when the ancients referred to thunderbolts from Zeus and the
apparently electrified net he put around Mars and the moon. This
apparently led to electrical engineer Ralph Juergens' studies into the
moon and Mars episode. This and his familiarity with Charles Bruce's and
others' theories of electrical forces shaping galaxies etc seem to have
led to his theory that the sun and all stars are electrically powered,
not nuclear powered. Thornhill accepted Juergens' theory and extended it
a lot.
8. They seem to agree that Velikovsky was right about #3 & 4, that
mankind suffered amnesia and that the traumatic fear carries on in the
human race, keeping science uniformitarian, and that Egyptian history is
wrong largely in the way he said and that Biblical history is more correct.
He identified Oedipus Rex of the Greek tragedy with the Egyptian
pharaoh, Akhnaten, whom conventional history still dates way too early.
9. Velikovsky's major error was in dating the cataclysms too recently in
historical times. Therefore, the Exodus plagues and other historical
catastrophes were not caused by a close approach with comet Venus or
with Mars etc.
10. His major legacy may be the discovery that ancient mythology was a
fairly accurate record of ancient events.
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our
mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's
subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. — Maitri Upanishad
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Re: Recovered: Remembering Velikovsky <#p956>
New post <./viewtopic.php?p=956#p956>by *arc-us
<./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=54>* » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:53 am
Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 8:58 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "Jack Lantern"
His work was interesting, he made suprisingly accurate predictions,
despite some of his claims that even I can't even except (proto-Saturn
going nova?), all in all, I would have to agree that he will be an
interesting footnote in the history of science, and that things have
moved forward since then.
_________________
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public
relations, for nature cannot be fooled."
-Richard P. Feynman
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our
mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's
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Re: Recovered: Remembering Velikovsky <#p957>
New post <./viewtopic.php?p=957#p957>by *arc-us
<./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=54>* » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:53 am
Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 1:48 am Post subject: Dr. V Reply with quote
OP "Steve Smith"
This forum, Thunderbolts.com, Holoscience.com, The Society for
Interdisciplinary Studies and many other websites and groups would not
exist if not for Dr. Velikovsky.
Dave and Stephen Talbott, Dwardu Cardona, Harold Tresman, CJ Ransom,
(author of his own book, The Age of Velikovsky -- 1976), Clark Whelton,
and many, many others too numerous to mention were intimate associates
with Dr. V.
I would not be doing what I do, now, if not for Dr. V. and his
contribution to the electric universe and the Saturn Theory were
substantial, necessary and foundational to this research. He was not
"popularly martyred". His book, Worlds in Collision, was a number one NY
Times, non-fiction bestseller in the 50's. It was people like Sagan,
Asimov and other blindfolded fencers who castigated his work.
Worlds in Collision, Earth in Upheaval and Mankind in Amnesia are
reference works on my bookshelf.
I remember Dr. V with admiration and respect. He led the way for my
interest in science, in general, and cosmology\astrophysics, in
particular. All that I know of Mars, Venus and the electrical scarring
of the planets and moons is because of Immanuel Velikovsky.
Steve
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our
mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's
subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. — Maitri Upanishad
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Re: Recovered: Remembering Velikovsky <#p958>
New post <./viewtopic.php?p=958#p958>by *arc-us
<./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=54>* » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:54 am
Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 7:57 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "David Talbott"
That is a very timely reminder Steve. On every occasion of a public
talk, Wal Thornhill and I will explicitly honor Velikovsky's
inspiration, and for the reasons you state.
Nevertheless, whenever I mention Velikovsky's name in the presence of
academics or scientists I do not know, I always find myself looking over
my shoulder, based on the kinds of responses I've gotten from people
sympathetic to the Electric Universe but strongly affected by the way
official science tells the Velikovsky story. But if the issue comes up
as a "negative," nothing will be of greater value to the one expressing
the concern than the discovery of Velikovsky's true contribution. To see
that contribution clearly is to instantly realize the scale of the
crisis in the theoretical sciences today.
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our
mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's
subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. — Maitri Upanishad
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Re: Recovered: Remembering Velikovsky <#p959>
New post <./viewtopic.php?p=959#p959>by *arc-us
<./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=54>* » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:55 am
Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 11:00 pm Post subject: Fair enough... Reply
with quote
OP "mgmirkin"
Okay, you'reright. Perhaps "popularly marytred" was a bit too strong.
Definnitely not saying he didn't start or contribute to the discussion.
I guess I was just pointing out that due to some scientific
witch-hunting, a bit of stigma has been attached after the fact, and
sometimes the name is used pejoratively. Not saying that's right or
wrong. Just it is what it is. And we are where we are because he started
the debate. BUT, I guess my point was simply that we're a few decades
beyond the "Velikovsky Affair."
It's useful in a historical context, but my understanding is that we've
moved on considerably beyond Velikovsky's initial ideas and are
considerably down the road toward the "bigger picture," so back-tracking
to re-debate Velikovsky isn't necessarily helpful. That's not to say his
work can't be mentioned in a historical context. Simply that referring
to Velikovsky's model seems to me like referring to an "earlier version"
of what we understand today, and we should rather focus on where we're
at in our understanding and go from there, rather than focussing on
"where we were" at that point in time.
No offense intended. Not saying Velikovsky doesn't deserve a place in
history or in conversation, simply that we should be careful of the
context, and be careful to "move forward," rather than dwelling on the past.
Anywho, good stuff. :)
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our
mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's
subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. — Maitri Upanishad
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Re: Recovered: Remembering Velikovsky <#p960>
New post <./viewtopic.php?p=960#p960>by *arc-us
<./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=54>* » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:56 am
Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 5:54 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "Professor_Archetype"
- Another vote from me for 'Velikovsky Reconsidered' which I recently read.
- I recall thinking that Velikovsky's theory that Venus sprang from
Jupiter was the weakest of his claims. Now, it turns out this is
possible under the electrical theory of the universe. I think I first
came across it reading Halton Arp. :shock:
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our
mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's
subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. — Maitri Upanishad
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Re: Recovered: Remembering Velikovsky <#p961>
New post <./viewtopic.php?p=961#p961>by *arc-us
<./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=54>* » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:57 am
Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 3:52 pm Post subject: Velikovsky's Predictions
Reply with quote
OP "Steve Smith"
Some of these predictions were said to be impossible when
you made them. All of them were predicted long before
proof that they were correct came to hand. Conversely I do
not know of any specific prediction you made that has
since been proven to be false. I suspect the merit lies
in that you have a good basic background in the natural
sciences and you are quite uninhibited by the prejudices
and probability taboos which confine the thinking of most
of us."
the late H.H. Hess, chairman, geology
department, Princeton, and chairman,
Space Science Hoard, National Academy
of Science, in a letter to Velikovsky
for public record, 1963.
"Space is not a vacuum; and electromagnetism plays a fundamental role in
our solar system and the entire universe."
"The sun is an electrically charged body."
"Venus originated in a violent disruption of Jupiter."
"Venus is hot."
"The Venetic atmosphere contains - besides carbon dioxide -
carbohydrates and hydrocarbons."
"Venus was in near collision with Earth."
"Venus may have an anomalous rotation."
"A large comet was in collision with Earth."
"Many comets are of recent origin (historical times) and are the result
of disruptions on planets."
"Some cometary tails and also some meteorites contain hydrocarbons"
"Some meteorites contain argon and neon."
"Jupiter emits radio noises."
"Jupiter: a dark star."
"Part of the ammonia and methane-rich Jovian atmosphere was converted
into hydrocarbons by means of electrical discharges when it became
Venus' trailing part."
"Mars has been subjected to stress, heating and bubbling activity in
recent times."
"Mars must have localized areas of strong radioactivity (due to
interplanetary discharges)"
"Mars must have changed its orbit and its rotational momentum."
"The moon has been subjected to heating (or liquefaction) and bubbling
activity in recent times."
"The majority of the lunar craters resulted from the collapse of large
bubbles."
"Evidence of petroleum hydrocarbons will be found on the moon."
"Hydrocarbons on the lunar surface must have been mostly converted to
carbides."
"Lunar rocks will reveal remanent magnetism, despite the fact that the
moon itself has an exceedingly weak magnetic field."
"Moonquakes must be very numerous (not necessarily strong)."
"Lunar rocks will be found to contain excessive inclusions of argon and
neon from an extraneous source; on the basis of potassium-argon dating
the age of the moon will be calculated as older than the solar system
itself."
"Localized spots of excessively strong radioactivity exist on the lunar
surface."
"A strong thermal gradient toward the surface, due to disturbance in
lunar motion will be found."
"Thermoluminescence of lunar cores will show a thermal process in
historical times."
"The Earth has a magnetosphere. It reaches at least as far as the moon."
"There have been many sudden reversals in the Earth's magnetic polarity,
and they were caused by interplanetary discharges."
"There have been shifts in the direction of the Earth's astronomical
axis and in the position of the geographical pole."
"Changes in the length of the day could have been caused in the past by
electromagnetic interactions."
"Some of Earth's petroleum deposits are of recent date and
extraterrestrial origin.
"The Earth's climate has undergone radical change as recently as the
Bronze Age. Human settlements will be discovered on the Kolyma or Lena
Rivers flowing into the Arctic Ocean."
"The last (Wisconsin) glacial period ended not 35'000 years ago but much
later, and a more recent glacial advance occurred 3,400 years ago."
"Entire civilizations were overthrown by violent catastrophes in the
Near East during historical times."
"The Minoan B script writings unearthed on Crete and in the Peloponnesus
are Greek."
"Mesoamerican culture is several centuries older than the date assigned
to it in traditional historical chronology."
There are many other "unconfirmed" predictions. Go here for the source
materials and who\where\when confirmed those that I've listed:
http://www.kronia.com/library/journals/success.txt
Steve
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our
mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's
subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. — Maitri Upanishad
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