Thunderbolts Forum For discussion of Electric Universe and Plasma Cosmology themes. * Login * Register * FAQ It is currently Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:50 pm Board index » Electric Universe - Origins of Myth All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ] Forum rules Please click here to view the forum rules Origins of Myth... Post new topic Reply to topic Page 2 of 2 [ 25 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2 Previous topic | First unread post | Next topic Author Message seasmith Post subject: Re: Origins of Myth... New post Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:10 pm Offline Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:59 pm Posts: 28 Dave T wrote: Quote: "Therefore, the issue as to where the station of the original polar sun might have been can remain open." Thank you for that. I agree, it is probably wise to start from that flexible perspective. As an aside, I would also entertain the possibility that the `near polar' asterisms portrayed on the famous Egyptian carved stone relief called the Circular Zodiac of Denderah [now in the Louvre] may serve as ~post-Ages of Chaos `markers', for some proto-Saturnian configurations originally seen in that portion of the sky, wherever that portion was relative to the cardinal directions of today. A decent drawing and description of the Denderah relief may be found in Charles Dupuis' "The Origin of all Religious Worship" pub.1872 (available on Amazon). The center portion is pictured below: Image http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:cEQOD7ptA90J:en.wikipedia.org/wik i/Dendera_Zodiac+ZODIAC+OF+DENDERAH&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=15&gl=us ~ Top Profile E-mail Plasmatic Post subject: Re: Origins of Myth... New post Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:19 pm Offline Moderator Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:14 pm Posts: 30 Quote: I also have a book, in Japanese, on the (Jade Age?) Mother Turtle Goddess culture and Temples from China and Japan ... and may find some bits and pieces of that which are of interest to you and others of this planet born (reborn) in that "unifying bolt of plasma" Yes indeed Im learning Japanese and would love any new input. In a while Ill start a thread for this topic , once I gather a bit of my notes etc. Top Profile E-mail Millennium Post subject: Re: Origins of Myth... New post Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:52 pm Offline Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:52 am Posts: 24 Image these are two Jomon Japanese Dogu images which bring to mind the Saturn-Polar-Sun imagery of Talbott, and the Z-Pinch Aboriginal Petroglyph imagery of Peratt et al: which can be viewed in larger detail at: http://groupkos.com/mtwain/WOW/DoguStars1.jpg Top Profile E-mail Plasmatic Post subject: Re: Origins of Myth... New post Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 5:26 am Offline Moderator Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:14 pm Posts: 30 Yes indeed , in a private discussion we have discussed both the Jomon venus figurines and the turtle mound/primevil hill archtype as relates to Japanese myth. Lets hold on this until we start a thread for it , I dont want to derail Daves thread any further , O.K. :) Top Profile E-mail David Talbott Post subject: Re: Origins of Myth... New post Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:37 am Offline Site Admin Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:11 pm Posts: 12 Having posed the question, I'll give the "short" answer first. How can one really know that the events proposed by the `Saturn Theory' actually occurred? It's easy... just go back in time Well, how else could you "step into the model" in the sense I suggested above? :) Yes, there's a point here. The more life you can give to the hypothesized condition through clear visualization, the more emphatic the implications will become and the more decisive the forensic tests. (In creating the oversimplified and stylized images below there's been no attempt to capture the ambient environment or other subtleties of the envisioned configuration--just the relative positions of bodies, and a few key formations) Step back in time and into the ancient world to observe the pre-dawn glow of what appeared as luminous, golden "waters" stretching across the heavens. Observe the gradual clarification of an immense sphere in the midst of the waters, and two considerably smaller spheres superimposed close to its center. As forms clarify, the larger of the two small spheres emits a bright glow, a stark contrast to the smaller, darker, reddish sphere in front of it. Attachment: VenusGlow.jpg VenusGlow.jpg [ 30.57 KB | Viewed 188 times ] Around the glowing orb a triangular form appears, but it is dynamic, and the three points of the triangle slowly extend back ("up") toward the limbs of the much larger sphere behind it, to produce a brilliant, three rayed star. Attachment: Venus triangle.jpg Venus triangle.jpg [ 31.03 KB | Viewed 188 times ] Attachment: Venus3-star(a).jpg Venus3-star(a).jpg [ 32.5 KB | Viewed 187 times ] An explosive emission of luminous material occurs, accompanied by wondrous sounds and melodic hums. (Now please, allow for no assumptions in advance. You're not a scientist yet :) . Electrical transmission of "sound" across the vacuum of space has not been ignored in this scenario.) Another sequence: The small glowing sphere has become a star of eight rays, reaching upwards to visually touch the edge of the massive sphere behind it. Attachment: 8-rayedSaturn.jpg 8-rayedSaturn.jpg [ 35.72 KB | Viewed 187 times ] The sky changes. The formation becomes more clearly defined as a crescent begins to appear on the large sphere. The three superimposed globes hang motionless above you, but the crescent slowly turns, in a dance with something occurring in the entire sky and on earth itself. As the crescent rises to the right and begins to reach its uppermost position, the sky grows steadily lighter, more harsh than before. Against this backdrop, the configuration as a whole fades to a pale and lifeless specter. Attachment: 8-Rays_Crescent.jpg 8-Rays_Crescent.jpg [ 77.87 KB | Viewed 6 times ] But as the crescent continues in its revolution, descending to the left, the surrounding sky darkens, as both the configuration and its ambient environment explode into life. It is as if the heavens are filled with living creatures of every sort. Debris that had appeared to erupt from the glowing star-like body seethes in the sky, and at times the ambient sounds are those of unearthly rings, shrieks and howls. Subtle movements begin to affect the look of the configuration. The extended streamers of the radiant star continually vary in number and form. Material descending from the darker, innermost sphere, acquires the appearance of a red tongue or spike thrust downward toward the earth. Even small movements of that orb produce dramatic changes in appearance. As it drops only a few degrees from the center, it grows much larger. Attachment: VenusMars.jpg VenusMars.jpg [ 30.04 KB | Viewed 187 times ] And in this visual descent a conical stream becomes visible, stretching between it and the exposed star above it. Attachment: MarsCrown.jpg MarsCrown.jpg [ 49.93 KB | Viewed 210 times ] Movements and librations grow more unstable producing continuous metamorphoses of the gathered forms. Surrounded by a multitude of radial streamers, the two small bodies appear as if surrounded by the petals of a heavenly flower. Attachment: VenusFullFlower(b).jpg VenusFullFlower(b).jpg [ 40.79 KB | Viewed 180 times ] But the central star and its small companion begin to separate visually from the massive body behind them. Attachment: VenusDeparts.jpg VenusDeparts.jpg [ 43.2 KB | Viewed 179 times ] And with that shift the surrounding streamers are no longer radial. From the new terrestrial vantage point, the appearance is remarkably similar to the familiar form of a scallop shell, though other images also come to mind--the tail of dove, or the spread tail of a peacock, perhaps. Attachment: VenusScallop.jpg VenusScallop.jpg [ 38.78 KB | Viewed 214 times ] When the two small bodies are aligned all that is seen is a narrow ring of light around the red sphere, but in the visual descent of the reddish sphere (noted above) the stream of material between the two bodies exhibits a conical form. As the two bodies continue to separate visually (no assumption concerning actual distances here), the lateral librations grow. What had been a conical form becomes a spiraling river of light. Attachment: Sidelock.jpg Sidelock.jpg [ 34.13 KB | Viewed 211 times ] As a tongue of material reaches from the red orb toward the Earth, the spiraling appendage appears to whirl around it like a rope winding round a post, a visual effect produced by your fixed position on a rotating Earth. Attachment: Post&Sidelock.jpg Post&Sidelock.jpg [ 26.22 KB | Viewed 211 times ] ________________ Well, these are only the first fragmentary glimpses of cosmic sequences that will either find comprehensive and explicit support, or not. The support will either be there at every level of detail, or it will not. And the test must go forward in terms that objective, critically-minded reviewers will comfortably embrace--not in the sense that they embrace an outrageous model in advance, but because they recognize that the protocol itself is inherently and inescapably valid. Beyond the proposed model, only facts are allowed, not speculations. We do not indulge the popular scheme in which one speculation is permitted to rest upon another in an endless chain. The facts to be considered are the global patterns, the archetypes, illuminated first and foremost by their earliest expressions. If you will hold the details of the formations and sequences clearly in mind, seeing the defined relationships between the parts and the explicit role of perspective as their relative positions change, you will see that this model, if fundamentally false, is far too specific to meet the required tests. I'll continue our little version of a Visionquest in the next few days. But for now just assume that many spectacular sequences can be added: great whirlpools of light; the appearance of a vast enclosure, a cosmic pillar rising from earth to sky as if to support the enclosure; and the disastrous collapse of the formation when it appeared that the heavens had been overturned--all of this followed by phases of commotion and cosmic violence, accompanied by even more complex, winding and towering forms in a different part of the sky. Assume also that in all of this, human witnesses to these spectacles are there with you, overwhelmed by the awe and terror of it all. So when your Visionquest is concluded you look about and wonder: how could it be that in the wake of these heaven-altering events, humanity knows NOTHING of them? And what were these remarkable spheres pressing in on the earth? As I'll attempt to illustrate, your search for answers will bring you face to face with the true meaning of predictive power. Experience over many years has shown that, for the intellectually curious, the light always goes on at some point: the reverberations of extraordinary cosmic events washed across the ancient cultures for thousands of years, and even today the echoes of these events surround us, though unrecognized for what they are. David Talbott Top Profile E-mail MGmirkin Post subject: Re: Origins of Myth... New post Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:01 pm Offline Moderator User avatar Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:00 pm Posts: 196 Location: Beaverton, Oregon, USA David Talbott wrote: When the two small bodies are aligned all that is seen is a narrow ring of light around the red sphere, but in the visual descent of the reddish sphere (noted above) the stream of material between the two bodies exhibits a conical form. As the two bodies continue to separate visually (no assumption concerning actual distances here), the lateral librations grow. What had been a conical form becomes a spiraling river of light. Image As a tongue of material reaches from the red orb toward the Earth, the spiraling appendage appears to whirl around it like a rope winding round a post, a visual effect produced by your fixed position on a rotating Earth. Image Not to skip too far ahead, but one is quickly reminded of the Egyptian "Eye of Ra" and various attendant Egyptian mythologies. Descendant symbols / myths from celestial events? Image (Eye of Horus / Ra; Ancient Egypt Online) http://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/eye.html (Eye of Horus; Wikipedia) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_Horus But, we'll probably leave further discussion of this for later (perhaps a new thread eventually). Trying to keep this brief. Cheers, ~Michael Gmirkin _________________ "The purpose of science is to investigate the unexplained, not to explain the uninvestigated." ~Dr. Stephen Rorke Top Profile David Talbott Post subject: Re: Origins of Myth... New post Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:18 am Offline Site Admin Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:11 pm Posts: 12 From Michael Gmirkin: Quote: Not to skip too far ahead, but one is quickly reminded of the Egyptian "Eye of Ra" and various attendant Egyptian mythologies.... But, we'll probably leave further discussion of this for later (perhaps a new thread eventually). Trying to keep this brief. Good "eye" there Michael :) . And there's no need to keep this one brief. You've looked at the model and asked the right question. As I said, the fastest way to test the model is to see the configuration clearly, with particular attention to the relationship between the parts at each phase. I'll have dozens of snapshots to present, each making the tests more specific and more complete, since the reconstruction claims to offer a unified and comprehensive explanation of the archetypes as a whole. You mention the Eye of Ra and the Eye of Horus. They are acknowledged to be the same thing. But if the model is correct, the relationships cannot be the same because Ra, in his original character, is the primeval Sun and Horus is the warrior-king, which the model interprets as a much different archetypal character in a different relationship to the Eye. Consider the model in the bare details I've already noted and you'll see that the Eye is in the center of the "sun", while the hero is enclosed within the Eye. So let's pose the questions arising from my previous post, with particular reference to the Egyptian theme of the cosmic Eye. As I said, one can start anywhere, since all roads lead back to the same archetypes. Did Ra possess a single eye? Yes. Though twin eyes become a crucial part of Egyptian imagery, and for good reason, the "Eye of Ra" is one of the most common expressions in Egyptian religious texts. Ra's first form, Atum, is the god of the "Sole Eye." Was Ra's eye a goddess? Yes, in fact, virtually every goddess from every region of Egypt was called "the eye of Ra." Was the Eye in the center of Ra? Yes, and the relationship is clear in the hieroglyph for Ra, a small circle in the center of a much larger circle. Was the Eye the life, power and glory of Ra? Yes, and a perfect example is the goddess Sekhmet, a well known form of the goddesses Isis and Hathor. The root of the name means power and glory. Enigmatically (for Egyptologists) the principle is denoted by a small circle. Was the Egyptian warrior-king born from the Eye-goddess? Yes, that is true of all mythic warriors, and since the Egyptian warrior god (case par excellence: Horus) is the prototype for all warrior-king symbolism, every king was symbolically born from the Eye goddess. Did the warrior-hero, in his first form, rest as the pupil of the Eye? Yes, the texts remember Shu "seated in the middle of his father's eye." More generally, the word arit, "pupil," was applied to all primary warrior figures, including Horus. Was the Eye-goddess transmuted into a conical form? Yes, she takes the "bowling pin" form of the Egyptian White Crown. Did Shu, the first form of the warrior-hero, wear the White Crown in his birth? Yes, he not only wears the crown in his birth (or descent; see images previously posted), the language of the crown itself confirms that it came into existence by virtue of the god's descent. This is a subject I'll return to in considerable detail. Did the Eye goddess acquire a form reminiscent of a scallop shell? Yes, very precisely, and through more than one symbol. It is the form taken by the goddess' radiant "hair", firstly, when she creates a "papyrus swamp" from her hair, in which to hide the newborn Horus; and secondly; when she takes the form of the warrior-king's headdress. We can return to this one as well. Did the Eye goddess take the form of a spiraling lock of hair? Yes, she takes the form of the sacred sidelock, called hensektet, worn by the newborn warrior. Hensektet is a name of both Isis and Hathor. Is the spiraling lock of hair connected to an axial "post" of some sort? Yes, the final image I gave in my previous post was originally inspired by the Egyptian hieoroglyph for the "mooring post," before I realized that other symbolic forms from the Near East and beyond pointed to exactly the same thing. Part of the answer here comes from the answer to the last question I'll pose for now-- Did the goddess take the form of a rope bound to an axial stake or post? Yes, the word hensektet means also "rope," and the "winding round" of the rope is a defining moment in the creation myth. It is by this "creation" that the originally unified power acquires his external, differentiated form, and the binding post is a key hieroglyph in the story, which I'll explain just as soon as practically appropriate. Of course, for a more complete analysis, we'll need to start at the beginning. The first form of Ra is Atum, the primeval Unity, conventionally translated as "the All." The texts say that, after an initial wandering, Ra found his resting place at the fixed center of the sky. Numerous commentators have acknowledged that the god's story and character identify his resting place as the celestial pole. Prior to the earthshaking and terrifying events of "creation," Atum holds within himself the unborn male and female powers, Tefnut and Shu. Shu is the first form of the warrior hero, and Tefnut is the first form of the mother goddess. You have to keep in mind that, in the metamorphosis of the configuration, the "newborn" forms inspired the worldwide concept of LINEAGE, something that cannot be ignored in this reconstruction, though conventional beliefs can offer not a word of counsel on this subject. Atum says that, in the creation, "from the god One (unity) I became three." That is, through differentiation, he became Ra, Shu and Tefnut. There is no reason to hesitate applying the model (as it is presented here) in any direction to see if it works up to the level claimed. For example, see if you can find an archaic Egyptian idea that, in its literal and original form, is inconsistent with the detailed requirements of the model. There's no better way to test predictive power. Go directly to the most outrageous, improbable, and specific details, where there can no ambiguity as to what the model "predicts," and there can be no difficulty in contrasting the predictive power of the model with the goose eggs achieved by popular conjectures. I'll keep repeating this to make sure the point is not overlooked. :) David Talbott Top Profile E-mail MGmirkin Post subject: Re: Origins of Myth... New post Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:13 am Offline Moderator User avatar Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:00 pm Posts: 196 Location: Beaverton, Oregon, USA David Talbott wrote: From Michael Gmirkin: Quote: Not to skip too far ahead, but one is quickly reminded of the Egyptian "Eye of Ra" and various attendant Egyptian mythologies.... But, we'll probably leave further discussion of this for later (perhaps a new thread eventually). Trying to keep this brief. Good "eye" there Michael :) . *Rimshot* :D David Talbott wrote: Did the Eye goddess acquire a form reminiscent of a scallop shell? Yes, very precisely, and through more than one symbol. It is the form taken by the goddess' radiant "hair", firstly, when she creates a "papyrus swamp" from her hair, in which to hide the newborn Horus; and secondly; when she takes the form of the warrior-king's headdress. We can return to this one as well. Let's do, since you provided us a image previously: David Talbott wrote: And with that shift the surrounding streamers are no longer radial. From the new terrestrial vantage point, the appearance is remarkably similar to the familiar form of a scallop shell, though other images also come to mind--the tail of dove, or the spread tail of a peacock, perhaps. Image One is also reminded of the descriptions of the goddess Venus "riding a clam shell" as it were... The parallels become obvious. Do other cultures use the clam shell or sea shell analogy as well? Or do you say that they adapt it to more or less things from their own culture / worldview, such as peacock feathers, Phoenix feathers {?}, etc? (Birth of Venus (Boticelli); Wikipedia) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_Venus_(Botticelli) Attachment: File comment: The Birth of Venus; from the mythological clam shell, as it were. Interpreted artistically as taking human, female form. Likely on account of some terms linking Venus to terms from the human body associated with comets. IE, coma = "hair," etc. As well as talking of Venus as radiant, beautiful, though also at times capricious or malevolent. 300px-Botticelli_Venus.jpg 300px-Botticelli_Venus.jpg [ 21.6 KB | Viewed 2 times ] Cheers, ~Michael Gmirkin _________________ "The purpose of science is to investigate the unexplained, not to explain the uninvestigated." ~Dr. Stephen Rorke Top Profile MGmirkin Post subject: Re: Origins of Myth... New post Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:46 am Offline Moderator User avatar Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:00 pm Posts: 196 Location: Beaverton, Oregon, USA David Talbott wrote: And in this visual descent a conical stream becomes visible, stretching between it and the exposed star above it. Image Had meant to mention this earlier, but couldn't find the right key words for Google to bring up what I wanted. But, now I've found it... I'll keep it brief. (Pharoah's royal crowns) http://www.egyptologyonline.com/pharaoh's_crowns.htm (White Crown) Attachment: File comment: The White Crown of Tut. WhiteCrownTutSmall.jpg WhiteCrownTutSmall.jpg [ 2.36 KB | Viewed 50 times ] (Double Crown) Attachment: File comment: The Double Crown of Horus. DoubleCrownHorusSmall.jpg DoubleCrownHorusSmall.jpg [ 3.39 KB | Viewed 50 times ] Both also seem tied to the "serpent" motif as well, with the serpent shown emerging from the forehead area of the crown. Do other cultures have similar depictions of the form taken by the "crown," or is that strictly an Egyptian thing? Or, do you think they were more into ritualizing the specific observed forms into tangible objects depicting the various formations? Or did they simply have a different vantage point / view of the events such that their ritualized objects were of a slightly different form than other cultures? Granted different cultures may have had different "rationalizations" or "responses" to the same events and interpreted them radically differently, thus leading to different things being ritualized or objectified / reified (as it were) in different ways. Cheers, ~Michael Gmirkin _________________ "The purpose of science is to investigate the unexplained, not to explain the uninvestigated." ~Dr. Stephen Rorke Top Profile David Talbott Post subject: Re: Origins of Myth... New post Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:16 pm Offline Site Admin Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:11 pm Posts: 12 MGmirkin wrote: Not to skip too far ahead, but one is quickly reminded of the Egyptian "Eye of Ra" and various attendant Egyptian mythologies. Descendant symbols / myths from celestial events? Image Just a quick word on this eye pictograph, which is of course one of the most familiar icons in all of Egyptian symbolism. The symbol is acknowledged to signify a phase in "creation," though all conjectures by Egyptologists attempting to account for it fall flat. What does an eye and a "mooring post" (the lower portion, a well-known hieroglyph attached to the Eye) have to do with the idea of "bringing forth the land of the gods," the fundamental meaning of the glyph (if people will allow literal translations to be taken seriously). Incidentally, the eye shown above does not reveal the form of the original radiant eye with explosive streamers, but a later phase, the "completed" enclosure of the gods, as I'll soon demonstrate. The two active powers engaged in this forging of the creator's external form are the goddess and hero. The hero's activity gives rise to the mooring post and all that follows in its metamorphoses, and the goddess' activity produces the enclosure, as I'll also show in due course. 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