Thunderbolts Forum For discussion of Electric Universe and Plasma Cosmology themes. * Login * Register * FAQ It is currently Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:33 pm Board index » Electric Universe - Origins of Myth All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ] Forum rules Please click here to view the forum rules Origins of Myth... Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 2 [ 25 posts ] Go to page 1, 2 Next Previous topic | First unread post | Next topic Author Message davesmith_au Post subject: Origins of Myth... New post Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:33 pm Offline Site Admin User avatar Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:29 pm Posts: 74 Location: Adelaide, the great land of Oz Ok folks, here it is, your new Mythology forum. Enjoy! Cheers, Dave Smith. _________________ "Those who fail to think outside the square will always be confined within it" - Dave Smith 2007 Please visit PlasmaResources for a comprehensive reference to all things EU/PC and much more. Please visit Thunderblogs for great news and views from a variety of commentators. Top Profile E-mail David Talbott Post subject: Re: Origins of Myth... New post Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:11 am Offline Site Admin Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:11 pm Posts: 12 Many thanks for joining us. And a special thanks to Dave Smith and his team for facilitating this new discussion board. In anticipating the launch of the Mythology Section, I suggested we'll want to work with the comparative approach "from the ground up." Here, the fastest path is also the most reasonable. The ground floor for us will be "snapshots" of formations seen in the sky. That's because, in this unique case, assessing the model's explanatory power will not be possible until readers have a visual reference. My claim has been that the model directly explains the archetypes--hundreds of global patterns or points of agreement between the different cultures--and at a level of detail and coherence that would be inconceivable in the absence of celestial events experienced around the world. Once the reasoning process registers with readers, evidence can be seen for what it is. Until then, readers will tend to be confused by the carnival of localized myth and by the many incompatible, often wildly speculative interpretations, all inducing a sense of futility in such adventures. Clarifying the nature of the reasoning involved must be one of our first priorities. I invite readers to view a ten-minute video segment on YouTube, which includes raw material for a three hour presentation in development, "Symbols of an Alien Sky." It's a rough cut (little attention to sound equalization, finer transitions and effects). And though this starting point is somewhat arbitrary, it could be fairly close to what we'll use in the three-hour presentation. In the concluding brief segment, you'll see a few snapshots of the reconstructed planetary configuration, though this is really just a teaser, with crucial details to follow. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wnv7v_c3l2c Within the next day or two I'll make available to Forum participants another ten-minute segment, identifying the celestial bodies in relation to certain well-defined phases and corresponding mythic themes. Here, perhaps Forum discussion, with contributions from those familiar with key elements of the model, can help to fill in portions of the missing content before completion of the video presentation. Let's see if we can gain a common sense of purpose here over the next few days. David Talbott Top Profile E-mail David Talbott Post subject: Re: Origins of Myth... New post Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:21 pm Offline Site Admin Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:11 pm Posts: 12 A follow-up to the previous comments. On the Principles of Reasoning I'm not going to try to cover the issue comprehensively, just to offer a few pointers. What are the logical ground-rules for a reconstruction of extraordinary natural events in ancient times? The reconstruction begins with the archetypes, patterns of mythical expression occurring globally. To follow the archetypes to a reliable conclusion, you can start anywhere. Why? Because these patterns constitute the substructure of human memory, and they are all inseparably connected. There's no such thing as an isolated archetype. I can assure you that there are more than a thousand such points of cross-cultural agreement. A few general instances would include: the ancient claim that the appearance of the sky changed dramatically in the past; memories of a lost age of "gods and wonders"; memories of a "perfect time" (Golden Age), the opening chapter in the age of the gods; the collapse of that epoch in a Doomsday catastrophe; a primeval sun presiding over that time--"when heaven was close to the earth." And the building of a great citadel of the gods, the subject of the archaic "creation" myth. As the investigation develops, the archetypes will grow increasingly specific and therefore more stringent in their demands upon the model. Random speculations about the origins of a particular local story have no place. The overriding issue is the integrity between the model and archetypal structures as a whole. Selective use of one or two archetypes is not permitted. No archetype can be excluded. For anyone being introduced to the reconstruction, this is what I call the "phase of dismay", because all of the claims of the model are, on the face of it, preposterous. I could give you endless examples of this phase, many from friendly and well-intentioned folks who didn't want to hurt my feelings :) . Of course, the strains on credulity are a disadvantage at the outset, but they become a distinct advantage once the underlying claims are clear and a conversation about predictive ability can begin. "Watching the prism turn" In fact, this is the part I've come to enjoy the most, because (assuming the person doesn't walk away out of disgust or disinterest), I then get to watch the "prism of perception" turn. There's a logical regime for evaluating this reconstruction and it easily becomes second nature for the intellectually curious. With every documented archetype, you ask two questions: 1) would anything occurring in our world today "predict" this global memory? And, 2) if the events we've reconstructed did indeed occur, would you expect this memory? To catalyze discussion of simple ground rules I've placed a second video segment for private viewing on Yousendit: http://download.yousendit.com/0A72BCF845B90EEB However, if you've not viewed the first segment, recently posted on YouTube as an experiment, that's what you should view first: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wnv7v_c3l2c Please understand that these segments simply string together modular components of a three hour video presentation in development and now in rough cut. The actual sequence of the presentation cannot be determined until more segments are completed. Strains on credulity will indeed occur. But I can assure you that that's not a problem, so long as you allow the specific claims of the model to direct the conversation that follows. David Talbott Top Profile E-mail Millennium Post subject: Re: Origins of Myth... New post Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:53 am Offline Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:52 am Posts: 24 your videos are wondrous, David, please thank Tony Peratt for his rock art studies. we are looking forward to seeing a thousand times more. [my wife Megumi and I live on indescribably sacred/beautiful ceremonial Chumash Tribal land in Ojai, with hundreds of mammoth stones depicting the deities of the Chumash people of Central Coastal California. I will post a photograph of the 'Whales Dreaming' here.] your videos are part of the awakening to our global electrodynamic collectivity of the ~NOW~. all times, all ancestors, all songlines. am circulating it to a few of my discussion groups at yahoo, to our global natural philosophy email groups, and to W.O.W.! of course. as to your language in the videos -- certainly no wheels were depicted in our time of the Jomon, the Stone Age. I've never heard anyone refer to the Wandjina or any Serpent--Ar'Ray'ed Goddesses from the millennia as 'wheels'. nor Amaterasu of Japan, or the Dogu. see my Wondjina artwork here: http://groupkos.com/mtwain/Artwork/Wondjina.jpg and nothing 'preposterous' or 'absurd', in the artistry and wisdom of our universal cultures of the GrandMothers, Seers, the Medicine Women -- depictions of the planet-and-celestial-wide spectrum of divine reality. not 'gods' and 'kings' and 'kingdoms'. http://unamity.com/NuWa our GLOBAL knowing of the now, herstory, is NOT known in focusing exclusively on the European, the male guild dogma, or the planets. the realm of spirit, of seeing, of the deities is equally experienced today ... as well as ten thousand years ago ... and one hundred thousand years ago. all seen, heard, sung ~now~ ... when we speak in respect of the GrandMothers and all peoples. ONLY through respect and sharing of the wisdom of ALL the skies, all our animal relations (personalities) who were/are associated with those deities -- the stars and nebulae and Palaces (Constellations) and Milky Way galaxy -- experience never-ending. The Mayan, the Ainu, Aboriginal, again all. the planets, and the masculine -- are a PART of the supreme knowing (omniscience) of being whole. presented AS the whole, they reveal nothing. to move in the direction of completing the Whole of our cultural electrodynamic tapestry, see the Dunhuang Chinese Astronomy manuscript database and Dunhuang star map at the British Library: http://idp.bl.uk/database/oo_loader.a4d ... 210/S.3326 bless you and Tony and Wal, and the Whole Thunderbolts Team, for giving our Whole world the chance to become re-illuminated. the Eagle AND the Condor, say our Elders. all of us, with all our sacred relations, Millennium Twain Top Profile E-mail Plasmatic Post subject: Re: Origins of Myth... New post Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:06 pm Offline Moderator Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:14 pm Posts: 29 I willl show you soon [being a japanophile myself] how Japan is RICH with Saturnian imagry / They have the very same "ARCHETYPES" as EVERY other culture!!! Every thing from the Garden rituals to the temple construction was reminiscent of the former age! THIS IS THE TYPE OF INTERPETATIONS THAT WILL NOT BE INVOLVED IN THE COMPARATIVE INVESTIGATORS ANALYSIS!!! : "We had to believe the shape of the path into the stars - implied by all this ancient spiritual cosmogeny - was based somehow in deep physics ... well now we know... The hotest subject in PLASMA STELLAR PHYSICS TODAY (practically the entire Plasma Physics Dept - at the famous Los Alamos ) is after they spent years modelling the NINE NESTED TOROIDS which formed the PLASMA STORM FROM THE GALAXY HEART which has pretty much toasted all Earth DNA every 7 thousand years or so, they were mystified to find that the results of their hottest computer models - had already been carved on the ROCKS IN THEIR PARKING LOT by indigenous tribes thousands of years ago - AND on literally hundreds of ancient petroglyphs from virtually every major ancient tribe AROUND THE GLOBE... That plasma storm - was called VISHNU" To quote Daves book THUNDERBOLTS OF THE GODS pg.89 "we do not wish to glorify mythology as a source of higher teachings or hidden wisdom" Top Profile E-mail David Talbott Post subject: Re: Origins of Myth... New post Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:03 pm Offline Site Admin Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:11 pm Posts: 12 Okay everyone, let's try to keep this discussion as close to the subject at hand as possible. Our subject is a concrete reconstruction of ancient events, and the logical principles required for assessing the historical argument. Certain questions of special interest to some, such as the role of "ancient spiritual wisdom" in mythology, can be taken up in separate threads, if desired. Following the evidence The advantage of the planetary reconstruction to be discussed here is that anyone familiar with a mythic archetype can test the model's predictive ability. Confidence in the reconstruction comes from the discovery that, as you descend into factual details--where most reductionist theories fall apart--the correspondence between model and evidence grows spectacularly. In the evolutionary phases of the configuration, the relative movements of the planets provide acid tests. Virtually none of the visual forms that resulted from these movements could be confused with something seen in the sky today. The "preposterous" story will either be reflected in global records or it will not. And the specificity of the events will not allow for manipulation of either the evidence or the model itself just to defend a prior idea. When confronting the outrageous claims of the reconstruction, only straightforward reasoning and common sense are required. As every good detective will remind you, don't believe in coincidence. If the reconstruction is mere fantasy on my part, there is zero possibility that it could possess anything like the predictive ability I've claimed. Snapshots of the configuration The point has to be appreciated concretely, by stepping into the model to identify inescapable implications ("predictions"). To illustrate this requirement, I'll use the image given in the brief video segment noted in my post above: Attachment: 8-rayedSaturn.jpg 8-rayedSaturn.jpg [ 35.72 KB | Viewed 435 times ] The reconstruction suggests that this formation, evolving through spectacular and at times terrifying phases, left a definitive signature in human imagination and on massive collective activity. These events were the catalyst for the vast creative expressions of the first civilizations. Humans everywhere drew pictures of the configuration's evolutionary phases, sang hymns to these cosmic powers, constructed monuments seeking to recapture aspects of the configuration, endlessly recounted stories about the events, and forged a wide spectrum of cultural functions and institutions modeled on the behavior of the celestial powers. Nothing mattered more to the builders of the civilized world. Getting to specifics, the reconstruction identifies three spheres in quasi-stable alignment, and it connects them with three dominating personalities of world mythology: the primeval unity (large sphere which the model identifies as Saturn); the mother goddess (discharging central star, identified as Venus), and the warrior-hero (small red sphere in front of Venus). At each stage in the investigation, one must follow the archetypes back to their earliest appearance. Given the progressive reinterpretation, elaboration, and distortion of experience over time--aggravated by the absence of the original provocation--it's only reasonable to look for images and texts closest to the events. For me, comparing the Egyptian Pyramid Texts to sources many centuries later gave the best illustration of the gap that emerged over time, separating the original expressions of the archetypes from their later, more ambiguous and complex reflections. A similar originality can also be seen in the early records of Mesopotamia. For this reason, I'll use these respective cultural environments to highlight the discipline a comparative approach requires. Here is the rudimentary list of global themes attached to the overarching figure of the universal sovereign: Heaven ("when heaven was close to earth") Motionless sun, superior sun Primeval unity, creator Founder of the Golden Age First in the line of kings Dying or displaced god. It is likely that the ancient identification of this large sphere as Saturn rests primarily on traditions preserved by the priestly skywatchers of ancient Mesopotamia, the world's first astronomers. Virtually all cultures preserved the stories and archetypal images, but few indeed appear to have tracked the celestial body in its departure, as catastrophe clouded the skies. The role of Venus as the depicted discharging star, however, is bedrock. The identity is effectively global. The archetypes include, but reach far beyond, these themes: Mother goddess as "Great Star" Eye, heart, and soul of the primeval sun Animating life, power, glory of the primeval sun Hub and spokes of the cosmic wheel Plant of life Crown of the warrior-hero Shield of the warrior-hero With the arrival of upheaval, it is this star that appears in the sky as the Great Comet, a story that would take more time to tell than is allowed here. With equal confidence we can affirm that the small red body is Mars, whose archetypal roles include: Warrior-hero, warrior king Innermost heart of the heart Child in the goddess-womb Child on the goddess' lap Pupil of the eye (or eye goddess) Axle of the cosmic wheel Active will of the creator Revolving Crescent Attachment: 8-Rays_Crescent.jpg 8-Rays_Crescent.jpg [ 77.87 KB | Viewed 9 times ] One other attribute of this phase must be mentioned--a luminous crescent appearing on Saturn, as seen in the Mesopotamian image below. There are of course thousands of global counterparts, all contradicting the behavior of the crescent we see in the sky today. The one place we never see a star is in FRONT of the moon! Attachment: MesoCrescent.jpg MesoCrescent.jpg [ 52.72 KB | Viewed 11 times ] This crescent form is another subject way too big for extended discussion here. But one reason for citing it is the role it played in my first vision of a "polar configuration." In early September, 1972, various mythic forms of the crescent, appearing in twin-like opposition in relation to a cycle of day and night, could only mean a location of the gas giant at the celestial pole, where it had to be in order to generate the implied revolution as the earth turned on its axis. I could immediately see that independent traditions of the stationary, superior sun at the pole, and Saturn's link to this figure, were not accidental. The example of the revolving crescent below is from Kuwait. Attachment: Kuwait_Crescent.jpg Kuwait_Crescent.jpg [ 51.25 KB | Viewed 435 times ] So where would you folks like to start, if only to confirm that I didn't just make all of this up? ¼ :) Since we'll be announcing this Mythology Section this weekend, I'll see if I can put together an example of "following the evidence" by tomorrow evening. David Talbott Top Profile E-mail Plasmatic Post subject: Re: Origins of Myth... New post Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:30 pm Offline Moderator Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:14 pm Posts: 29 Perhaps a few examples of why the patterns CANNOT be seen as describing Precessional imagry...or is that for post introduction stage....probably so , maybe some textual examples along side photos of the ancients identifying the "gods" as "planets" Top Profile E-mail seasmith Post subject: Re: Origins of Myth... New post Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:43 pm Offline Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:59 pm Posts: 28 David Talbott wrote: Quote: ...in my first vision of a "polar configuration." Dave T, Considering your, [and Cardona's] past references to a Northern polar alignment, for the configurations alluded to above, and, given Peratt's conclusion that the overwhelming majority of ancient petroglyphs have a SFOV [Southern Field of View]; Would you care to comment on your current view of polar alignments? Perhaps beginning with the example of proto-Saturn and associated column/axis-mundi/mound, as depicted in your above video trailer. Thank you, s ~ Top Profile E-mail Plasmatic Post subject: Re: Origins of Myth... New post Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:00 pm Offline Moderator Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:14 pm Posts: 29 Quote: SATURN AND THE POLE In ancient ritual Saturn appears as the stationary sun or central fire at the north celestial pole. When Saturn ruled the world, his home was the summit of the world axis: with this point all major traditions of the great father agree. Even today, in our celebration of Christmas, we live under the influence of the polar Saturn. For as Manly P. Hall observes, "Saturn, the old man who lives at the north pole, and brings with him to the children often a sprig of evergreen (the Christmas tree), is familiar to the little folks under the name Santa Claus."(1) Santa Claus, descending yearly from his polar home to distribute gifts around the world, is a muffled echo of the Universal Monarch, the primordial Osiris, Yama, or Kronos spreading miraculous good fortune. His polar abode, which might appear as an esoteric aspect of the story, is in fact an ancient and central ingredient. Saturn, the "best sun" and king of the world, ruled from the polar zenith. But while popular tradition located Santa Claus at the geographical pole, the earlier traditions place his prototype, the Universal Monarch, at the celestial pole, the pivot of the revolving heavens. The home of the great father is the cosmic centre -- the "heart," "midst," or "navel" of heaven. As the earth rotates on its axis the northern stars wheel around a fixed point. While most stars rise and set like the sun and moon, the circumpolar stars -- those which describe uninterrupted circles about a common centre -- never fall below the horizon. The invisible axis of the earth's rotation leads directly to that central point -- the celestial pole -- around which the heavens visually turn. All of the ancient world looked upon the polar centre as the "middle place," "resting place," or "steadfast region" occupied by the Universal Monarch. One of the first writers to recognize the pole as the special domain of the great god was W. F. Warren, who wrote in Paradise Found (published in 1885): "The religions of all ancient nations ... associate the abode of the supreme God with the North Pole, the centre of heaven; or with the celestial space immediately surrounding it. [Yet] no writer on comparative theology has ever brought out the facts which establish this assertion." In the following years a number of scholars, each focusing on different bodies of evidence, reached the same conclusion. The controversial and erratic Gerald Massey, in two large works (The Natural Genesis and Ancient Egypt), claimed that the religion and mythology of a polar god was first formulated by the priest-astronomers of ancient Egypt and spread from Egypt to the rest of the world. In a general survey of ancient language, symbolism, and mythology, John O'Neill (The Night of the Gods) insisted that mankind's oldest religion centered on a god of the celestial pole. Zelia Nuttall, in Fundamental Principles of Old and New World Civilizations, undertook an extensive review of ancient Mexican astronomy, concluding that the highest god was polar. From Mexico she shifted to other civilizations, finding the same unexpected role of a polar god. Reinforcing the surprising conclusions of the above researchers was the subsequent work of others, among them Uno Holberg (Der Baum des Lebens), who documented the preeminence of the polar god in the ritual of Altaic and neighbouring peoples, suggesting ancient origins in Hindu and Mesopotamian cosmologies; (2)Leopold de Saussure (Les Origines de l'Astronomie Chinoise), who showed that primitive Chinese religion and astronomy honour the celestial pole as the home of the supreme god; Rene Guenon (Le Roi du Monde and Le Symbolisme de la Croix), who sought to outline a universal doctrine centering on the polar gods and principles of ancient man. That these and other researchers, each starting down a different path, arrived at much the same conclusion concerning a supreme polar god of antiquity should have been sufficient to provoke a reappraisal of long-standing assumptions. Is it possible that, as these writers claimed, the ancient star-worshippers paid greater heed to a god of the pole than to the solar orb? Rather than respond to the question, solar mythologists diplomatically ignored it, thereby assigning the above investigators to an undeserved obscurity. I want to reopen the question, but to approach it from a different perspective. Most of the aforementioned writers possessed a common -- if unspoken -- faith in the ceaseless regularity of the solar system, seeking to explain the polar god in strictly familiar terms: the centre of our revolving heavens is the celestial pole; the great god of the centre and summit must have been the star closest to this cosmic pivot. But as observed in the previous pages, the great father was not a mere "star"; he was the planet Saturn, recalled as the preeminent light of the heavens. Moreover, the Saturn myth states that the planet-god resided at the celestial pole!(3) In the myth and astronomy of many lands Saturn's connection with the pole is direct and unequivocal. Chinese astronomers designated the celestial pole as "the Pivot," identifying the "Genie of the Pivot" as the planet Saturn.(4) Saturn was believed to have his seat at the pole, reports G. Schlegel.(5) This strange and unexplained image of Saturn caught the attention of de Saussure (one of the foremost experts on Chinese astronomy), who added an additional startling fact: the Iranian Kevan, the planet Saturn, also occupies the polar centre.(6) But the theme is older than Chinese or Iranian tradition, for it finds its first expression in the Sumero-Babylonian An (Anu), the highest god, acknowledged as the planet Saturn. Each evening, at Erech, the priests looked to the celestial pole, beginning their prayer with the words, "O star if Anu, prince of the heavens."(7) Saturn ruled from the summit of the world axis.(8) I must note, however, that I am not the first to observe this general principle. A recent volume by Giorgio de Santillana and Hertha von Dechend, entitled Hamlet's Mill, offers the revolutionary conclusion that according to an ancient doctrine Saturn occupied the celestial pole. Top Profile E-mail davesmith_au Post subject: Re: Origins of Myth... New post Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:15 pm Offline Site Admin User avatar Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:29 pm Posts: 74 Location: Adelaide, the great land of Oz Plasmatic, do you have a source for that quote?? Cheers, Dave Smith. _________________ "Those who fail to think outside the square will always be confined within it" - Dave Smith 2007 Please visit PlasmaResources for a comprehensive reference to all things EU/PC and much more. Please visit Thunderblogs for great news and views from a variety of commentators. Top Profile E-mail Plasmatic Post subject: Re: Origins of Myth... New post Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:36 pm Offline Moderator Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:14 pm Posts: 29 Oops , THE SATURN MYTH by Dave Talbott Top Profile E-mail seasmith Post subject: Re: Origins of Myth... New post Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:00 pm Offline Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:59 pm Posts: 28 Plasmatic wrote: Quote: Oops , THE SATURN MYTH by Dave Talbott Published 28 years ago, and i've read "Thunderbolts of the Gods", but my question to Dave is in the current context of sources cited above. I'm not trying to be contentious or contrary. Merely seeking a common framework of observations and theories to save a lot of back and forth in our discussion and comparative analysis of the "Origins of Myth". Sincere thanks for the pertinent quote Plas, s ~ Top Profile E-mail Plasmatic Post subject: Re: Origins of Myth... New post Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:10 am Offline Moderator Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:14 pm Posts: 29 Ill let Dave speak for himself ,but I think youll find that the Mytho historical records are not what has changed .they are what they are . But Id expect simply the interpretations of aspects of planets that where called " clouds of gas and dust" would now be called plasma filaments. Simply a replacement or insertion of plasma were there wasnt before. But all the Perrat papers and sfov in the world arent going to change the actual recorded memories.We can only discover the ancints words and symbols. What the 2 differences mean .. well thats another story...Pole change , lost references maybe some nfov glyphs not discovered , well see I guess.....But Im interested as any in Daves own perspective beyond what little Ive heard on the subject. Top Profile E-mail David Talbott Post subject: Re: Origins of Myth... New post Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:42 am Offline Site Admin Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:11 pm Posts: 12 Regarding the "polar" station of the great luminary early astronomers identified as Saturn: I gave the benefit of the doubt to the north celestial pole, while emphasizing over the years that ancient language itself does not permit you to distinguish between north, south, east or west in translations of early texts. The language of modern geographic directions came relatively late. The original language arose from COSMOGRAPHY, based primarily on relative positions of celestial bodies and the unique formations around them in the celestial theater. Right and left, above and below (supplemented by "extreme below," which I'll have to explain), upper and lower, front and back, base and summit, center (axis, axle) and boundary, inside and outside, etc. Eventually these words describing relative positions were applied to the sacred directions of kingdom on earth, which quickly confused the picture. Geographically, "up" and "down" do not have the same references in Egypt and Mesopotamia, for example, despite the fact that the original directional language of the two cultures is surprisingly consistent. One reason the Pyramid Texts now appear to be largely gibberish is the habit of translators in using familiar geographic interpretations rather than the original, more literal meanings of words. "Left, " the region of celestial "growing bright" in the daily cycle, will be translated as east, and the literal "growing bright" of the primeval sun will be translated as rising; and the literal mountain of fire and light, reaching upward to the center of heaven, will be translated as horizon. And there you have it. "Ra rises in the eastern horizon." The translation is simple and obvious, except for the fact that it can only lead to contradictions and cannot be correct. :) So where did the formations being documented by Anthony Peratt originate? It may surprise those who've begun to follow Peratt's independent investigation to know that when I first forwarded to him a set of images including the now-famous "chain of arrows," "backbone of the sky (ladder of heaven)," and "eye mask," I stated in no uncertain terms that these formations were seen in the south. They all belong to a phase (phases, really) that I called "displacement" or "wandering." Therefore, the issue as to where the station of the original polar sun might have been can remain open. When Manilius said of Saturn that the god was "thrown down to the opposite end of the world axis," it could be that he left a telling clue as to the god's original location. David Talbott Top Profile E-mail Millennium Post subject: Re: Origins of Myth... New post Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 4:46 pm Offline Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:52 am Posts: 24 Plasmatic wrote: Quote: I willl show you soon [being a japanophile myself] how Japan is RICH with Saturnian imagery / They have the very same "ARCHETYPES" as EVERY other culture!!! Every thing from the Garden rituals to the temple construction was reminiscent of the former age! it would be fun to co-explore this area with you perhaps. Megumi and I spent a little time two weeks ago, reconstructing the his-and-herstory of Japan re: names of the seven deity-days of the week ... and their origins in Chinese Feng Shui ... and their association with the Chinese 'elements' ... from a book if I recall written in 1600BC ... to their adoption in 'Buddhist-Shinto' Japan in 600 AD or so. [Saturn, Saturday, was associated with the element 'Earth' ... and our cosmic 'Center' as compare North (Water, Mercury), South (Fire, Mars), East (Wood, Jupiter) and West (Metal, Venus)?] Megumi and I are both of Saturn. my particular interest is looking back in time, in the Japanese isles ... to focus on the Jomon people and true Shinto ... their age of universal spirits ... to the song/names they sang for the Sun and planets and stars. [said to be a very Polynesian matrifocal Japanese period.] when Megumi and I write up our initial little introduction and post it to yahoogroups I will let you know here ... and you can feed us back with what you know ... and we can build from there. I also have a book, in Japanese, on the (Jade Age?) Mother Turtle Goddess culture and Temples from China and Japan ... and may find some bits and pieces of that which are of interest to you and others of this planet born (reborn) in that "unifying bolt of plasma" ... 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