Thunderbolts Forum For discussion of Electric Universe and Plasma Cosmology Skip to content Board index ‹ New Insights and Mad Ideas Change font size FAQ Register Login How EU Theory Developed Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light? Moderators: arc-us, MGmirkin Forum rules Post a reply First unread post • 12 posts • Page 1 of 1 How EU Theory Developed by Lloyd » Wed Jan 26, 2011 4:38 pm E.U. WAS FOUNDED ON NEW PERSPECTIVE ON ANCIENT DOCUMENTS * There are lots of scientific theories about the electrical forces in the universe. Scientists have been noticing electrical features in the universe since at least the late 1800s. And others have continued to notice such features since the mid 1900s till now. * But what makes EU theory different from the others and has resulted in its more significant advances is the fact that it did not start out as EU theory at all. Instead, it started out as an effort to make better sense of ancient documents. Here's a brief summary. * Velikovsky, a psychiatrist who moved to the U.S. just before WW2 from Israel, was an atheist, but a student of Bible history. In reading about the Exodus, he asked himself if it was possible that the plagues were real events, instead of miracles, and if they were caused by near-collisions with planets. * In 1950 he published his book, Worlds in Collision, which provided evidence that a near-collision with Venus caused the plagues of the Exodus and several near-collisions with Mars caused lesser catastrophes around 700BC. He made reference to possible electrical forces that may have played a part during these near-collisions. Velikovsky's training in psychology helped him see that the ancients appeared to suffer from a condition he called "collective amnesia", by which trauma due to catastrophes caused the younger generations in ancient times to suppress memories of the events and to dismiss and reinterpret what their elders had witnessed and wrote down. * Throughout the 1950s, 60s and 70s, establishment science tried to discredit Velikovsky's theories. * In 1967, De Grazia, a behavioral scientist, et al published The Velikovsky Affair, in which they contended that much of Velikovsky's ideas were plausible, and that the science establishment exhibited irrational behavior in its efforts to condemn him like a religious heretic. * In 1972, Dave Talbott, an engineer, began publishing a quarterly magazine, called Pensee', Velikovsky Reconsidered. Many scientists from various fields contributed articles to the magazine. Ralph Juergens, another engineer, was one of the editors and he contributed letters in discussion with professionals, such as C.E.R. Bruce, Eric Crew, and Melvin Cook. Early issues of Pensee' had several articles challenging dating methods, such as C14. I believe one article was called Earth without a Moon and quoted ancient documents that claimed that there was no Moon in earlier times. * In 1974 the AAAS, American Association for the Advancement of Science, held a kangaroo court symposium, called Velikovsky's Challenge to Science, led by Carl Sagan and pitting Velikovsky against several defenders of science dogma and one, Irving Michelson, aerospace engineer, who actually considered that Velikovsky's theory did not violate celestial mechanics. The 7th issue of Pensee' reported on the symposium and included examples of the mainstream media's extreme bias against Velikovsky and slanting of the news of the event. * In the final two issues of Pensee', Juergens published an article called, "Of the Moon and Mars", in which he showed that the Moon and Mars may have suffered electrical scarring during a close encounter in ancient times. He provided persuasive, detailed explanation of why the rilles on the Moon are most likely electrical features. He also provided evidence that many of the craters were also formed electrically. * Pensee' ended publication in 1975, but Kronos began in 1976, I believe. In Kronos Velikovsky contributed an article suggesting that some dinosaurs were mammals and lived into the time of ancient man. Juergens also contributed an article explaining his electrical theory of the Sun. In 1977 he first announced his theory that the Saturn System, which included Earth, originated outside the Solar System. Velikovsky himself had already theorized that Earth was originally a Moon of Saturn, which he initially intended to publish in Worlds in Collision, but the editors persuaded him to leave it out and publish it separately later. Both Velikovsky and Juergens died in November 1979. * I don't know of any major researchers who still accept Velikovsky's original thesis that Venus and Mars had close encounters with Earth from 3500 to 2700 years ago [I haven't yet read much by John Ackerman]. Instead, they've concluded that such encounters occurred much earlier, about 5,000 years ago, long before the Exodus etc. In 1980, Dave Talbott published his book, The Saturn Myth, in which he showed that Saturn occupied a stationary position above Earth's north pole in ancient times and gave the appearance of a giant angel standing high over the north pole. He and Dwardu Cardona independently discovered that ancient myths indicated this arrangement, which was called the polar configuration. Many articles in Kronos dealt with clarifying correct planetary identities of ancient gods. It was found that Saturn was our first Sun, called later the Dark Sun etc. Kronos magazine ended in about 1986. There was a Velikovsky convention in 1994. Aeon magazine started in 1988 and continued until 2003 or so. In 2000, Thoth email newsletter began and then ended in April 2004 [See http://sci2.lefora.com/forum/category/sci2-forum-topics-news]. The Thunderbolts website started posting Pictures of the Day in July 2004. The first forum started in March 2007, then crashed in January 2008. The new forum started right away and some of the best threads from the first forum were salvaged with a lot of work by several members. * Cardona published his first 3 books, God Star, Flare Star and Primordial Star from about 2003 to recently. And he's working on at least 2 more, I believe. They all involve Earth in the Saturn System until the breakup of the system about 5,000 years ago. He found that the Saturn System likely originated in the Sagittarius Dwarf Galaxy and entered the Solar System about 10,000 years ago. * Each member of the Thunderbolts team has independent views, but they agree on many matters. * Cardona agrees that Saturn was a brown dwarf star and that it had bipolar jets, in which Earth was in the trailing jet; Saturn had flares periodically which rained detritus on Earth and the other satellites. * He thinks Saturn flares put the brakes on Earth's rotation, which caused continents to slide apart on the Moho layer, i.e. continental drift without subduction. He thinks Earth and other bodies expanded and contracted. He thinks most craters were formed kinetically, rather than electrically. * Thornhill et al think the ocean basins were carved electrically, not by continental drift. And they think craters etc were formed electrically. * I agree with Cardona about continental drift, but with Thornhill about most craters etc. * Most of us are willing to modify our views, if evidence seems to demand it. * Is there anything important I left out? Lloyd Posts: 1724 Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:54 pm E-mail Lloyd Top Re: How EU Theory Developed by Osmosis » Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:36 pm Good job, Lloyd! A very short, but clear history of the EU origins. I like it! Best, Osmosis Osmosis Posts: 322 Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:52 pm Location: San Jose, California E-mail Osmosis Top Re: How EU Theory Developed by JaJa » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:54 am Great summary Lloyd. Thank you Omnia in numeris sita sunt JaJa Posts: 324 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:23 am Top Re: How EU Theory Developed by tayga » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:11 am Thanks, Lloyd. That tells me a lot I didn't know. Could you also add something to explain how Wal Thornhill, Don Scott and Anthony Perrat came to be associated with EU ideas and what their input has been? tayga It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong. - Richard P. Feynman Normal science does not aim at novelties of fact or theory and, when successful, finds none. - Thomas Kuhn tayga Posts: 200 Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:54 am E-mail tayga Top Re: How EU Theory Developed by stickwhistler » Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:21 am In addition to the publications and articles that Lloyd mentions, may I respectfully draw your attention to http://saturniancosmology.org/ There is about 50 hours of reading about EU in action with respect to our solar system. Jno Cook draws upon work by Talbot and Thornhill, and others, and (IMHO) makes a compelling case for the history of Earth, and other planets, using EU explanations. It certainly helped me understand 'how & why' after seeing "Thunderbolts" and "Symbols". Each page (chapter) can be saved resulting in approx 12Mb if all put into the same folder on your computer. If 50 hours seems too much, how old will you be in 50 hours if you don't look at it? stickwhistler Posts: 12 Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 2:19 am E-mail stickwhistler Top Re: How EU Theory Developed by Lloyd » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:00 pm Tayga said: Could you also add something to explain how Wal Thornhill, Don Scott and Anthony Perrat came to be associated with EU ideas and what their input has been? * I think Thornhill first met Dave Talbott in 1974 at a Velikovsky Symposium, but I hadn't heard of him myself until I subscribed to Thoth email newsletter [See my first post above for link]. Thornhill, as a physicist, contributed many articles to that newsletter. He started his website about the same time, I think in 2000, i.e. http://holoscience.com. He made a CD called The Electric Universe about that time too, which I purchased. He and Talbott then wrote Thunderbolts of the Gods together. * This site has quite a bit of info on major Velikovsky supporters: http://www.velikovsky.info/Special:Search?search=de+grazia&fulltext=Search. * I think Talbott met Peratt [and Sheldrake too] at a conference around 2000 and asked him if petroglyphs resembled plasma phenomena. And that led Peratt to study rock art from around the world and he published a book about it, suggesting that rock art was based on plasma phenomena in the ancient sky. I think Peratt provided expert info to Cardona for his books. * Don Scott wrote several articles for Thoth newsletter. He was a professor at a college in Amherst, MA. I think he taught electrical engineering or the like. He retired a few years ago. I don't know how Scott became associated, but I could probably ask him, if interested. I don't know if he'd answer, but he answered a few questions for me in the past. * By the way, the Saturnian Cosmology site favors a different view than does this one. I'll let anyone familiar with that site explain in more detail, if they like. There are a lot of offshoots from Velikovsky's ideas. I did get to read some of John Ackerman's site now, and he follows Velikovsky's ideas about Venus and Mars having near collisions in more recent times. He's an astronomer or something and he seems very competent in that regard, but I think his interpretations of myths are rather poor. He relies on Sitchin for some of his views and I'm pretty sure Sitchin was very incompetent, greatly mis-identifying gods, planets and historical figures. I think Ackerman's views on Venus' current conditions are probably largely correct and the same with regard to current conditions on other planets etc, but his ideas about planetary formation etc are fairly conventional, although interesting. Lloyd Posts: 1724 Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:54 pm E-mail Lloyd Top Re: How EU Theory Developed by stickwhistler » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:52 pm Lloyd wrote:* By the way, the Saturnian Cosmology site favors a different view than does this one. I'll let anyone familiar with that site explain in more detail, if they like. There are a lot of offshoots from Velikovsky's ideas. I'm sure there are differing views as to 'what actually happened' but the Saturnian Cosmology site does offer an Electric Universe explanation of how, using the terms used on this site, and by Talbot and Thornhill, both here and in their publications of books and DVD's, and Perrat etc. To be honest, nobody knows for sure what happened, but there is no argument between here (thunderbolts) and there (saturnian cosmology) of the mechanisms that produce the effects seen, in the sky or on the ground. Having studied Jno Cook's writings, I find there is a diffence of speculation e.g. was Earth a sattelite of Saturn, but not of electrical causes for e.g. the apparent movement of Mars to and fro between Earth and Saturn or Jupiter. The site really is worth looking at - even if you disagree with some of its speculations. stickwhistler Posts: 12 Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 2:19 am E-mail stickwhistler Top Re: How EU Theory Developed by Lloyd » Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:49 am Book on Religion & Science Mentioned Velikovsky * This is a very interesting Google book: http://books.google.com/books?id=ZgR7rc ... &q&f=false . * It's called Redeeming culture: American religion in an age of science, By James Burkhart Gilbert. McCarthyism? * On page 360 it may suggest that Harlow Shapley [astronomer], who was perhaps the first person to vociferously oppose Velikovsky's books, even before they were published, may have been involved in the McCarthyism of the 1950s which was a hysterical reaction against possible communists within the U.S. Huge Synchronicity * A weird story later on that page goes like this: Velikovsky [author of Worlds in Collision] did not appear to be acquainted with a similarly titled science fiction story by Edwin Balmer, When Worlds Collide, published in 1933. ... In some respects this science fiction story parallels Velikovsky's work. Two planets invade the solar system; one will smash into Earth and the other offers a haven for a new human history. There are Adam and Eve characters and a spaceship called "the Ark", designed to carry a few humans to the new world. This fantastic retelling of the Bible story from Genesis through Joshua in effect reverses the story, placing Eden in the future. It thus conflates end time with beginning time and substitutes planetary collision for Noah's flood. ... Hollywood science fiction producer George Pal made a film of this story in 1952. * It seems that should say 1951. Here's a review of the film from the time: http://movies.nytimes.com/movie/review?res=9C0DEED9123AE53ABC4F53DFB4668389649EDE. Looks like people found it dull. Apparently it was the more famous "War of the Worlds" that Pal produced in 1952. Lloyd Posts: 1724 Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:54 pm E-mail Lloyd Top Re: How EU Theory Developed by ItJustMakesSense » Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:33 pm Nicely done Lloyd I'm still not convinced of the Saturn theory though because it would mean there would be no solstice and there are many very ancient solstice markers out there. ItJustMakesSense Posts: 128 Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:57 pm E-mail ItJustMakesSense Top Re: How EU Theory Developed by Lloyd » Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:15 pm * But I bet the solstice markers don't predate 10,000 years ago, when the Saturn System entered the Solar System. * Am I wrong? Lloyd Posts: 1724 Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:54 pm E-mail Lloyd Top Re: How EU Theory Developed by ItJustMakesSense » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:35 pm Supposedly the ones at tiawinaku are older but who knows. I like the saturn theory this is the problem I'm having with it. I would like to hear what the thunderbolts founding fathers have to say about this. ItJustMakesSense Posts: 128 Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:57 pm E-mail ItJustMakesSense Top Re: How EU Theory Developed by Lloyd » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:17 pm * Many of the TPODs show features that logically should be dated as only thousands of years old, but are conventionally dated at millions of years instead. * Check em out. Those TPODs are words from the horses' mouths. See: http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=e ... 95c947f3f0 Lloyd Posts: 1724 Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:54 pm E-mail Lloyd Top Display posts from previous: All posts1 day7 days2 weeks1 month3 months6 months1 year Sort by AuthorPost timeSubject AscendingDescending Post a reply 12 posts • Page 1 of 1 Return to New Insights and Mad Ideas Jump to: Select a forum------------------AnnouncementsElectric UniverseElectric Universe - Planetary ScienceElectric Universe - ResourcesElectric Universe - Net TalkTPODs - Thunderbolts Picture Of the DayThunderblogs/MultimediaThe Future of ScienceThe Human QuestionNew Insights and Mad Ideas (Defunct) Electric Universe - Origins of Myth Who is online Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests Board index The team • Delete all board cookies • All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ] Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group