Thunderbolts Forum For discussion of Electric Universe and Plasma Cosmology Skip to content <#start_here> * Board index <./index.php> *‹* New Insights and Mad Ideas <./viewforum.php?f=10> * Change font size <#> * FAQ <./faq.php> * Register <./ucp.php?mode=register> * Login <./ucp.php?mode=login> The Evolution of the subjective consciousness <./viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4182&start=15> Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light? Forum rules Post a reply <./posting.php?mode=reply&f=10&t=4182> First unread post <#unread> • 24 posts • Page *2* of *2* <#> • 1 <./viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4182>, *2* Re: The Evolution of the subjective consciousness <#p47247> New post <./viewtopic.php?p=47247#p47247>by *moses <./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=116>* » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:59 pm What I find fascinating is that how universal this concept has become, and that mere observations in nature can attest to the significance of as above, so below: Aristarchus Just as in the bible, stories have started in the events of the ancient sky, but there is a strong parallel to events within. And it seems certain that adepts have used these early stories to relate understanding of what goes on within. I can agree as to the second part of your statement, but I view the self as having its own course of evolving, and this continues on the astral and the mental levels. I would add that one must detach from the self in order to view it from the outside and it being influenced from the distractions of our daily lives. One must quiet the mind to know thy self. Aristarchus If the self is evolving then why must one detach oneself from it. Clearly very good definitions of self, individual, consciousness, etc are required, and that is why I use J Krishnamurti's definitions, because they have been superbly worked out. But still I must come back to early traumatic events as the major cause of the disquieting of the mind. Blocking them out is not the way. Mo moses <./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=116> *Posts:* 455 *Joined:* Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:18 pm *Location:* Adelaide * E-mail moses <./memberlist.php?mode=email&u=116> * Website Top <#wrap> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: The Evolution of the subjective consciousness <#p47266> New post <./viewtopic.php?p=47266#p47266>by *Aristarchus <./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6837>* » Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:52 am moses wrote:If the self is evolving then why must one detach oneself from it. Clearly very good definitions of self, individual, consciousness, etc are required, and that is why I use J Krishnamurti's definitions, because they have been superbly worked out. Because the self does not recocognize itself for what it really is, and therefore cannot evolve. The self is trapped, as it is defined by arbitrary labels, such as, man/women, Democrat/Republican, husband/wife, child/spouse, athiest/theopist/paganist, etc. The self doesn't know itself. When one meditates, one at first has thoughts of one's daily life going through his/her head. One then disciplines his/her meditations through the excercise of focusing and labeling one's thoughts. Once mastering the latter, one then proceeds to focus on a single thought, and eventually leading to the excercise of clearing one's mind of all thoughts. Through this focus and practice the self becomes defined as something seperate from that which it is in its daily physical life. Thus, when one comes back into the physical reality of functioning in one's daily life, a new awareness of clarity is apprehended which allows the meditative self to appreciate those that might be still in the lower levels of unclarity or not knowing the path of the true self. However, first one must have obtained a subjective consciousness, realizing the "I" as it is determined by others and its place in the overall scheme of things. The virtues of compassion, forgiveness, and understanding now become dominant, replacing judgment, but not discernment. In other words, one no longer falls prey to the dogmatic teachings of religion, but at the same time, there is an understanding the role it might play for the uninitiated. Therefore, the initiated avoids being critical of exoteric religions, and would never accuse religion as being responsible for the divisions that are already inherent in humankind. Everything plays a role, and each individual is on his/her seperate path. One would never seek to abolish religion in the hope of fostering a New Age collective spirituality, because that in itself would sooner or later fall into the trappings of the dogmatic and exoteric. It is manipulative and controlling because it doesn't account for the individual path, and would only succeed in creating greater animosity among those trying to deal with practices one is not yet prepared to undertake. moses wrote:But still I must come back to early traumatic events as the major cause of the disquieting of the mind. Blocking them out is not the way. If it resides in the subconscious, it is already blocked out - buried. How one becomes made aware depends on the willingness of the individual to, first, be prepared, and, second, ready to understand it. With that stated, it is not simply major traumatic events from the past that are blocked out, but, I would argue, a great deal of what alienates one from the path of enlightenment is the mundane. As with every growing process, one also needs to let go of the past to some degree, but that is not to say one should completely ignore the past. As in all things there needs to be balance, but even that which appears unbalanced is part of the process, just as even destruction is a form of creation. "I am at this moment writing a lengthy indictment against our century. When my brain begins to reel from my literary labors, I make an occasional cheese dip." ~ John Kennedy Toole (A Confederacy of Dunces) User avatar <./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6837> Aristarchus <./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6837> *Posts:* 196 *Joined:* Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:05 am * E-mail Aristarchus <./memberlist.php?mode=email&u=6837> Top <#wrap> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: The Evolution of the subjective consciousness <#p47291> New post <./viewtopic.php?p=47291#p47291>by *moses <./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=116>* » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:46 pm If it resides in the subconscious, it is already blocked out - buried. Aristarchus Is it blocked from producing action. And such action could be emotion, thought, bodily movement, or interactions with the rest of the world. You may feel that you have control over your actions through mind control, but if blocked traumatic experiences produce actions that basically try to reproduce that traumatic event, even symbolically but definitely in actuality, then you are lost. As one studies psychotherapy one finds that such traumatic events leave the body in a biochemically unbalanced state with a propensity to react to stimuli in an exaggerated or inappropriate manner. Much of this is caused by epigenetic changes which means that the wrong levels of proteins are produced. Correct diet and exercise and meditation will have little effect. One needs to heal and thus readjust the epigenetics. Focussing may help or hinder, and one needs to see that healing is the significant thing. Mo moses <./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=116> *Posts:* 455 *Joined:* Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:18 pm *Location:* Adelaide * E-mail moses <./memberlist.php?mode=email&u=116> * Website Top <#wrap> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: The Evolution of the subjective consciousness <#p47331> New post <./viewtopic.php?p=47331#p47331>by *Aristarchus <./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6837>* » Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:36 am moses wrote:As one studies psychotherapy one finds that such traumatic events leave the body in a biochemically unbalanced state with a propensity to react to stimuli in an exaggerated or inappropriate manner. Much of this is caused by epigenetic changes which means that the wrong levels of proteins are produced. My premise is based upon the rise of the subjective consciousness, which we can presume rose as a phenomenon around 1500 BC and continued to evolve up until 600 BC. This suggests to me that an individual has the propensity to address this biochemical imbalance at some level. Otherwise, you must demonstrate that these epigenetic changes have remained static, and that would require data that supports such a claim. In addition, "inappropriate manner" is a subjective quality that is applied to the discussion. What do you qualify as an exaggerated and inappropriate manner? I ask this, because I need a reference for what it is that you're referring to in order to give a context to the positing. There are those that are still in the preconsciousness development, and this is why you have individuals that will subject animals, children, and adults to abuse and cruelty. Not everyone is created equal, and there is also the consideration of the urban mass media that becomes a factor as a civilization enters its decline as it exists in a period of megalopolises. This is why one step in the process for me was to recognize one component of existentialism that identifies the alienation of the individual. The individual subjected to alienation then becomes subjugated to the false dilemma of the self (alienated and thus unknown & unrecognized) and that of the collective consciousness. Furthermore, the deception of causality and a concatenation of history deceives the individual that humankind shares collective experiences, and this negates the reality of the qualitative pertaining to individual assessment. Whereas, these collective experiences of humankind are interpreted differently by any particular culture. For example, the ancient sky as witnessed 4000 - 3600 BC is radically different from that experienced today and many centuries afterwards. If we believe in the interconnectedness of a living universe, one must surely also factor in the current experiences. I would also add that how Europeans experienced the trauma of WWII, where 17 million non-combatants and 15 million combatants were killed as a result, vastly differ than those experienced by Americans during that time. In other words, to state again, nothing is static and the current evolution of spiritual development is not one centralized experience, although this is not to negate the collective experiences. It's like boonlean search operators of 'and', 'not,' 'or'. Image moses wrote:Correct diet and exercise and meditation will have little effect. One needs to heal and thus readjust the epigenetics. Focussing may help or hinder, and one needs to see that healing is the significant thing. I only gave a very nascent stage for the process of an individual’s awareness of self, and this must come from the impetus of the individual realizing this as a possibility. Certainly, when one becomes involved with the study of the hermetic approach, it entails much more than correct diet, exercise, and meditation. With that stated, I already posted the following on another TB topic: Meditation group participants reported spending an average of 27 minutes each day practicing mindfulness exercises, and their responses to a mindfulness questionnaire indicated significant improvements compared with pre-participation responses. The analysis of MR images, which focused on areas where meditation-associated differences were seen in earlier studies, found increased grey-matter density in the hippocampus, known to be important for learning and memory, and in structures associated with self-awareness, compassion and introspection. Participant-reported reductions in stress also were correlated with decreased grey-matter density in the amygdala, which is known to play an important role in anxiety and stress. Although no change was seen in a self-awareness-associated structure called the insula, which had been identified in earlier studies, the authors suggest that longer-term meditation practice might be needed to produce changes in that area. None of these changes were seen in the control group, indicating that they had not resulted merely from the passage of time. "It is fascinating to see the brain's plasticity and that, by practicing meditation, we can play an active role in changing the brain and can increase our well-being and quality of life." says Britta Hölzel, PhD, first author of the paper and a research fellow at MGH and Giessen University in Germany. "Other studies in different patient populations have shown that meditation can make significant improvements in a variety of symptoms, and we are now investigating the underlying mechanisms in the brain that facilitate this change." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 144007.htm I do not doubt your assertion, "One needs to heal and thus readjust the epigenetics," but you need to offer me a suggestion or detail of what this would actually entail. "I am at this moment writing a lengthy indictment against our century. When my brain begins to reel from my literary labors, I make an occasional cheese dip." ~ John Kennedy Toole (A Confederacy of Dunces) User avatar <./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6837> Aristarchus <./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6837> *Posts:* 196 *Joined:* Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:05 am * E-mail Aristarchus <./memberlist.php?mode=email&u=6837> Top <#wrap> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: The Evolution of the subjective consciousness <#p47333> New post <./viewtopic.php?p=47333#p47333>by *JaJa <./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6889>* » Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:20 pm Aristarchus Aristarchus wrote:There are those that are still in the preconsciousness development, and this is why you have individuals that will subject animals, children, and adults to abuse and cruelty Could you explain why you attribute this type of behaviour to pre-conscious individuals. Also could you explain what preconsciousness means in context with consciousness? Not everyone is created equal Could you expand on the reasoning behind this. Are you talking from a physical sense or are you talking in a conscious sense? Omnia in numeris sita sunt User avatar <./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6889> JaJa <./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6889> *Posts:* 316 *Joined:* Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:23 am * E-mail JaJa <./memberlist.php?mode=email&u=6889> Top <#wrap> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: The Evolution of the subjective consciousness <#p47341> New post <./viewtopic.php?p=47341#p47341>by *moses <./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=116>* » Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:38 pm My premise is based upon the rise of the subjective consciousness, which we can presume rose as a phenomenon around 1500 BC and continued to evolve up until 600 BC. Aristarchus It is a theory - we don't really know that ancient people were any different to ourselves. EU tells us that these people underwent severely traumatic conditions. We can be pretty certain that that affected their brains, and thus affected our brains. It is quite likely that the ancient peoples existed in stable conditions for long periods and consequently were probably psychologically very advanced. The trauma impaired them and to suggest that some sort of advancement came out of it, is only a theory at best. In fact, it is much easier to see much of the problems of humanity arising from this impairment. I do not doubt your assertion, "One needs to heal and thus readjust the epigenetics," but you need to offer me a suggestion or detail of what this would actually entail. Aristarchus Well meditation that changes the brain as you have noted, is not a healing mechanism. It is more along the lines of standard psychotherapy which increases repression and so increases the blockage of past trauma. Better functioning is the result but the epigenetics is not affected, so the proteins are still wrong and the tendency to replay the past trauma still persists. The ancient shaman had healing methods and now we have Janovian and transpersonal therapy, albeit in it's infancy, but getting there. To offer more detail would be either dangerous or illegal, as digging into past traumatic events is no monkey business. Mo moses <./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=116> *Posts:* 455 *Joined:* Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:18 pm *Location:* Adelaide * E-mail moses <./memberlist.php?mode=email&u=116> * Website Top <#wrap> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: The Evolution of the subjective consciousness <#p47360> New post <./viewtopic.php?p=47360#p47360>by *Aristarchus <./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6837>* » Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:30 pm JaJa wrote:Could you explain why you attribute this type of behaviour to pre-conscious individuals. Also could you explain what preconsciousness means in context with consciousness? JaJa, I will try to answer the rest of your post and that of moses later, but at this point of clarification I will admit that I was somewhat rushed and therefore clumsy in my response to moses, and it should not be considered that these tendencies of cruelty are absolute for preconscious individuals. Let me try to explain in that the preconscious is a vast reservoir of thoughts and emotions waiting to come into the consciousness, and thus they are embraced with self-awareness at the level of consciousness. The self-awareness of one's actions and acting upon desires and wishes are then manifested. However, this self-awareness has not yet comported and integrated itself to a world view awareness, and is thus more likely to contain a lack of empathy. The subjective consciousness has the capability to reflect upon its actions as it relates to a world view, and so its actions are perceived in an overall larger context of being and a relation with other beings, and so there is more at stake than a mere consequence of one's actions, but rather, how those actions affect oneself and others. In other words, it is one thing not to act upon my desires for fear that the consequence will land me in jail, and quite another not to act upon a desire because I am truly concerned with how it will affect and cause suffering of another. In the rise of the subjective consciousness corresponding with the rise of religious thought at the time of 1500 BC - 600 BC, we see in the Eastern mindset the development of reflection and an introspection of one's actions. Compassion becomes a virtue that is something more than simply having or granting mercy upon another. It is here that the way for the individual to understand himself/herself outside the defining role of his/her cultures comes into existence; however, in order to propagate this kind of thinking unto the greater whole of the population it is necessary to adopt religious associations. To begin to train others that animals are also beings that one should appreciate as sharing our existence, one might state in very simple terms to be careful of the earthworms you dig up in tending to planting your fields, for as all things reincarnate, these earthworms might be the reincarnation of your ancestors. For the esoteric mind, the idea of reincarnation does not entail going back to a lower form of being, such as an earthworm, but to convey ideas of reincarnation to the uninitiated one must place it in very basic terms in order for the idea of compassion to begin a process of development in the overall community. The problem then arises that this very simple means of translating a spiritual development to the overall community manifests as exoteric, and then a doctrine, and then dogma, and it thus becomes static and used as a vehicle of control by those that only want power over others. "I am at this moment writing a lengthy indictment against our century. When my brain begins to reel from my literary labors, I make an occasional cheese dip." ~ John Kennedy Toole (A Confederacy of Dunces) User avatar <./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6837> Aristarchus <./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6837> *Posts:* 196 *Joined:* Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:05 am * E-mail Aristarchus <./memberlist.php?mode=email&u=6837> Top <#wrap> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: The Evolution of the subjective consciousness <#p47546> New post <./viewtopic.php?p=47546#p47546>by *Aristarchus <./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6837>* » Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:56 am JaJa wrote:Could you expand on the reasoning behind this. Are you talking from a physical sense or are you talking in a conscious sense? I was speaking to the matter of awareness, which I explained somewhat in my previous post. This relates to the adage that we stand on the back of giants. Others open the way for us to gain a better understanding of ourselves, and we have a responsibility to open that way for others, as well (IMO). Thus, I can accept the premise posited by moses when stating: moses wrote:Better functioning is the result but the epigenetics is not affected, so the proteins are still wrong and the tendency to replay the past trauma still persists. The ancient shaman had healing methods and now we have Janovian and transpersonal therapy, albeit in it's infancy, but getting there. To offer more detail would be either dangerous or illegal, as digging into past traumatic events is no monkey business. It's just that I am of the view that an individual can affect a change outside the collective consciousness, and that the trauma programmed in the epigenetic is dealt with differently for each particular individual. Although, I will concede, at this point in the discussion, I might not understand completely what has been offered by moses. "I am at this moment writing a lengthy indictment against our century. When my brain begins to reel from my literary labors, I make an occasional cheese dip." ~ John Kennedy Toole (A Confederacy of Dunces) User avatar <./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6837> Aristarchus <./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6837> *Posts:* 196 *Joined:* Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:05 am * E-mail Aristarchus <./memberlist.php?mode=email&u=6837> Top <#wrap> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: The Evolution of the subjective consciousness <#p47614> New post <./viewtopic.php?p=47614#p47614>by *JaJa <./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6889>* » Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:07 am Thank you for taking the time to explain this for me Aristarchus. Kind regards Omnia in numeris sita sunt User avatar <./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6889> JaJa <./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6889> *Posts:* 316 *Joined:* Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:23 am * E-mail JaJa <./memberlist.php?mode=email&u=6889> Top <#wrap> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Previous <./viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4182&start=0> Display posts from previous: Sort by ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Post a reply <./posting.php?mode=reply&f=10&t=4182> 24 posts • Page *2* of *2* <#> • 1 <./viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4182>, *2* Return to New Insights and Mad Ideas <./viewforum.php?f=10> Jump to: Who is online Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests * Board index <./index.php> * The team <./memberlist.php?mode=leaders> • Delete all board cookies <./ucp.php?mode=delete_cookies> • All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ] Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group